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TOPIC: Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge

Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge 10 Jul 2018 09:50 #99723

Freddy Jansen himself writes....

I ‘m not retired (yet) haha. But I didn’t receive any mail or correspondence from people at the DBA. My e-mail address still is This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

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Pete Milne, Quo Vadis, Europe

Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge 07 Jul 2018 19:23 #99686

we have used Notaris Snijder and he speaks enough English, he solved the problem of the boat stil being registered 20 years ago to another person in the Kadaster

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

www.notarissnijder.nl

T +31 165 566 919

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www.jan-kees.us
jan-kees.blog

Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge 06 Jul 2018 21:58 #99675

I have been asked by a Forum reader to report the following which may be of help:

From: Freddy Jansen | The Notarial [mailto: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.]
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2018 10:48 AM
To: xxxx
Subject: Absent
Dear Sir / Madam, I am absent today. Your e-mail will not be forwarded. For urgent matters, please contact one of my colleagues from the "private real estate" department on telephone number 038 - 427 34 10 or by e-mail to This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. I'm not in the office today. Your e-mail is not forwarded. For urgent matters: please contact one of my colleagues, tel. + 31-38-4273410 or send a message to This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. With kind regards, With kind regards, Freddy Jansen

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Pete Milne, Quo Vadis, Europe

Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge 06 Jul 2018 18:39 #99674

  • Andy Soper
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Hello Tom,
He may have retired ........and sorry I have no direct link. He worked out of the Zwolle office.
Suggest you ask Nysingh for a notary experienced in ship registration matters - all professional NL people speak good english - luckily for us!

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Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge 06 Jul 2018 13:27 #99671

  • Thomas Riley
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Hi Andy
I'm sorry I haven't thanked you earlier for your very helpful response.
I have actually tried to contact Freddie Jansen and Nysingh say they have never heard of him! Very strange. Do you have any direct contact details for him by any chance?
Best wishes
Tom

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Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge 06 Jul 2018 13:24 #99670

  • Thomas Riley
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Thank you so much, Peter, for being so kind as to take the time to respond in detail to so many of my questions. I have taken note of your advice and will feed back when we have worked it all out..
Incidentally, I've tried to contact Freddie Jansen without success - Nysingh don't seem to have heard of him! I will check again with Andy so please don't spend any time tracking him down. You have helped more than enough, for which I am most grateful.
Enjoy the summer
Best wishes
Tom

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Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge 06 Jul 2018 13:15 #99669

  • Thomas Riley
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Many thanks, Peter. Actually we have consulted with a French notary who has advised us that the barge does not come under French law because it Dutch registered.
So issues to do with French inheritance law won't apply thankfully.

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Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge 02 Jun 2018 08:38 #99107

Peter Smith wrote: I wonder if one of our legal eagles could work with a notary to create an article for Blue Flag to show the workings and permeations occurring with the sale / transfer of vessels.

This would be a Pandora's box and an expensive one at that. It would require legal (including notarial) advice on multiple branches of the law (sale of goods; real estate; inheritance law; tax planning...) in multiple jurisdictions, each being subject to its own domestic laws and international treaties on top, and would need specific legal advice for each jurisdiction. I doubt that DBA - The Dutch Barge Association (!!!) employs either internal or external lawyers other than for its role as a registered company, i.e. England & Wales, let alone regarding international private and public law. So we'd be looking at external lawyers and legal custom and practice in - how many countries? England & Wales, Scotland, Eire, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Poland, to name but a few, plus maybe the neighbouring countries all the way down the Danube to the Black Sea. If there's a legal eagle within the ranks willing to take on that little lot pro bono, good luck!

Pete Clark

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Pete Clark
Nooit Gedacht

Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge 02 Jun 2018 08:15 #99105

Good Morning Tom

I've done just a quick search so far as I don't want to spend too much time online on the boat (wasting my kids' inheritance blogging!) and it looks as if I may have to eat my words at least on one point ("Intro.").

Paul Hayes wrote on 13th Feb. this year under "Inheritance Planning":
"Having been through this recently as The Executor of a (UK) Will.
If the boat is registered in the UK (Part 1 or SSR) it falls under British law and is classed as an asset of the owner wherever it is located."

Paul does go on to say that things might differ under different countries' laws. So in your case, the boat being NL-registered, by analogy dutch law might well apply. Basically, as already mentioned, you definitely need professional legal advice. As Andy suggested, I also would start with e.g. Freddie Jansen and take it from there.

I'll check some more from home tomorrow, (time. house-painting, dogs and other tasks allowing).

Pete Clark

PS: From another thread (VAT on qualifying ships) one or both of Anne and Bruce look extremely clued up on legal and tax matters. While they probably would not wish to give direct legal advice on the forum, if you contact them maybe they can at least give you some tips as to where to look.
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Pete Clark
Nooit Gedacht

Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge 02 Jun 2018 08:13 #99104

I am not a legal expert of any kind but I've been involved with buying/selling boats for quite some time and I think you will find that a boat is a chattel, and it that sense it is no different to if we were talking about a car. Obviously the change of ownership of a Dutch registered vessel needs to be registered with the Dutch authorities - the fact that it is presently in France is irrelevant to that. You really do need to find a legal expert who is familiar with boats, and I'm sure Freddie Jansen would be someone to approach sooner rather than later.
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Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge 02 Jun 2018 05:47 #99102

  • Peter Smith
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I wonder if one of our legal eagles could work with a notary to create an article for Blue Flag to show the workings and permeations occurring with the sale / transfer of vessels.
A bit like 'Days of our lives' or ' Corination Street' Chris could keep us enthralled for years!

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Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge 02 Jun 2018 00:54 #99099

  • Peter Smith
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With no direct knowledge of the situation but being of the understanding that French law may take precedence it is important a notary is employed.
I understand with French law irrespective of the wishes expresses in the will the inheritance goes to the eldest son not the wife, l could be wrong. In this case the step-mother doesn't get a look in!
So I ask a contentious question, can the vessel be relocated to the Netherlands or is its location locked in on the passing of the owner? At this stage do the French know of the vessels situation?

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Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge 02 Jun 2018 00:03 #99098

Hello Tom
Sorry to hear of your loss – a trying time for all.
I think, to avoid more grief later, my answers would be a little more robust than Andy’s.

Intro.:
Following my father's death at the end of last year we are wanting to sell his dutch-registered 24m barge, St Gerardus, which is currently moored in Auxerre France.
I seem to remember there being a forum thread on the subject of property ownership in a boat of a deceased person in France last year (?) – I don’t remember the details, but will try to dig it out.
In any event, the boat is on French soil: I can’t recall if it is to be regarded as a chattel (goods) or as real property (as in house), but be aware that French property and inheritance law will most probably apply, rather than dutch law. The fact that it is registered in NL is immaterial.

The barge will belong to my step-mother …
Presumably you mean it will belong to your stepmother by your deceased father’s testament - ?

… once we receive grant of probate, …
Who will receive probate – you or your stepmother? Are you joint executors? The executor(s) receive(s) probate and, once granted, may dispose over the property in accordance with the deceased person’s testament.

… but it is currently in my father's name and we have been told that this cannot be changed until probate comes through.
Correct.

I wonder if anyone can advise on the following:
1. Are we able to accept offers on the barge and proceed with a sale before the probate comes through ?

No – it belongs neither to your stepmother (yet) nor to you, to sell. But as Andy says, no reason not to advertise it and seek potential buyers. Just be sure to make them aware of the situation and not to proceed with any sale to which you are not authorised by probate and/or French law (see above).

2. Will we need to change the name on the register to my step-mother's before we can sell …
Like Andy, I wouldn’t think so - dutch notary to advise (see 5. Below).

or is it possible to sell the boat and the name be changed from my deceased father's name to the new owner's name without us having to register the boat in my step-mother's name in between?
Ditto.

3. We have been told that it is not wise for us to sell until my step-mother officially owns the vessel …
Agree. See 1. above

as she may still be liable for any third party damage if she does - eg, if the new owner sinks another vessel and walks away from it. Is this correct?
Seems a bit confused and/or a red herring – in any event, see 1. Above.

4. Are there likely to be any tax implications in Holland when we sell the barge (eg inheritance tax) or does Dutch law follow the provisions of the UK Will?
In short, don’t know – but see Intro. Without having any specific knowledge on the subject, logic suggests that any tax implications should follow the relevant Double Taxation Agreement.

4(=5). Will we need to appoint a solicitor to handle the sale and if so, does anyone have any recommendations of someone who speaks English, is efficient, and who doesn't charge too much!
In short, yes. I agree with Andy re Freddie Jansen re the conveyancing part. Whether his practice is also able to advise on the wider questions of inheritance and tax law is something you should ask them, of course. I would guess that yours is a not uncommon situation for them.

But remember also the possible relevance of French law (Intro.). I may be wrong here – as I said, I’ll try to dig further.

Bon courage!

Pete Clark
Nooit Gedacht

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Pete Clark
Nooit Gedacht

Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge 31 May 2018 13:18 #99073

  • Andy Soper
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Hello Tom,

1 - I doubt it - but no reason not to advertise it and seek potential buyers
2 - Not necessarily - but see 5
3 - Possibly
4 - Unlikely - see 5
5- You are definitely in need of A Dutch Notary's advice. My recommendation , supported by others, is Freddie Jansen of Nysingh.nl
- www.nysingh.nl/en/ . Freddie speaks and writes good English and the Nysingh website is available in English.

When it comes to the sale remember that it is normal for the seller to choose the notary and for the buyer to pay his fee (less the probate and tax advice). Dutch Notaries (?Notarys?) are required to ensure that any tranaction beteween buyer and seller is legal and that there are no outstanding debts or issues with ownership. They protect both parties.

Best Wishes

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Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

Questions re selling my father's dutch registered barge 31 May 2018 12:23 #99072

  • Thomas Riley
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Following my father's death at the end of last year we are wanting to sell his dutch-registered 24m barge, St Gerardus, which is currently moored in Auxerre France. The barge will belong to my step-mother once we receive grant of probate, but it is currently in my father's name and we have been told that this cannot be changed until probate comes through.
I wonder if anyone can advise on the following:
1. Are we able to accept offers on the barge and proceed with a sale before the probate comes through ?
2. Will we need to change the name on the register to my step-mother's before we can sell or is it possible to sell the boat and the name be changed from my deceased father's name to the new owner's name without us having to register the boat in my step-mother's name in between? 3. We have been told that it is not wise for us to sell until my step-mother officially owns the vessel as she may still be liable for any third party damage if she does - eg, if the new owner sinks another vessel and walks away from it. Is this correct?
4. Are there likely to be any tax implications in Holland when we sell the barge (eg inheritance tax) or does Dutch law follow the provisions of the UK Will?
4. Will we need to appoint a solicitor to handle the sale and if so, does anyone have any recommendations of someone who speaks English, is efficient, and who doesn't charge too much!
I would be very grateful indeed for any advice on the above and the best way to proceed. As you can tell, this is most definitely new territory for us.
Regards, Tom

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