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TOPIC: ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate??

ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 23:12 #102072

When we had the first triwv certificate in 2011 there was no mention of using the same surveyor and the situplation was that the hull survey was not more than 2 years old. Our hull was surveyed by Mr Beck our Belgium surveyor and then later in the year Peter Voerman came and did the certificate. This time I used a French surveyor whilst in SJDL dry dock last year and after contacting peter this year was told about the “change” but luckily the French man was acceptable . Anyway new certificate obtained.

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ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 22:09 #102070

David Warren wrote: It now seems that you need to use the same surveyor for hull and the community certificate unless the hull surveyor is recognized by the classification society who are issuing the certificate.

I don't think that's very new though it may be getting more formalised. My Dutch Community Certificate (CBB) surveyor was happy to accept a survey by another HISWA certified surveyor, who wasn't certified for the CBB. It is up to the actual CBB surveyor to accept a hull survey as adequate. My second hull surveyor wasn't HISWA accredited and his survey wasn't accepted for the CBB renewal. [It was a bad survey report too] It is certainly better to get one surveyor to do both hull and the certificate.

I though the Eni number was issued by the country of registration and 14 is the U.K. number ....

The number need not be issued by the country of registration (see my previous), though usually is. Each country has a range of three-digit prefixes as here so UK has 140-159. The Netherlands (020 – 039) uses the 4th digit to denote the port of registry, so my boat, originally registered as 'sHage 450' automatically has the ENI 03010450 as 0301 indicates Den Haag.
Ultimately the number doesn't really matter as long as it is unique for the AIS. A boat can be transferred from one owner or registry to another but still keeps its ENI.

Pete

* HISWA is a Dutch standards society for surveyors. In my area, Belgium and Holland, the Community Certificate is commonly known as the CBB.

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Pete Milne, Quo Vadis, Europe

ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 21:41 #102069

Hello David,

Yes - you do need to be sure that the certificating organisation is happy with your hull surveyor.

OTOH my EU certificate survey was later accepted by my insurer to delay the need for an insurance survey.

Swings and roundabouts - always worth asking or checking.

UK is 14 but most older ships will have had an NL number allocated against a Kadaster entry - a Dutch surveyor can advise.

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Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 20:37 #102068

It now seems that you need to use the same surveyor for hull and the community certificate unless the hull surveyor is recognized by the classification society who are issuing the certificate. I nearly fell into this trap by having my hull survey in time for the insurance company a year before the old certificate expired. Fortunately it has turned out that the French surveyor is known to the Dutch society.
I though the Eni number was issued by the country of registration and 14 is the U.K. number and all the European countries have their own numberhich you can see on the sides of the commercials.

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ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 19:03 #102065

Pete Milne wrote:
Simon - Which company did you use?

Pete


I used the pleasure commission based in Ostend rather than an accredited surveyor as I had already had my hull survey carried out by a surveyor that could not do the community certificate part-and speaking to a surveyor that could do th community certificate they wanted to do the hull survey themselves!
In future I will use a surveyor that can do both!

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ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 17:02 #102062

simon wrote: I asked the two surveyors that came to conduct the community certificate today about the changes that are coming and they said that there were no changes due for another 5 years or so and that a deadline of December is unheard of!?!?! Maybe not in Belgium!

Some Belgian surveyors do not have a good reputation in Belgium! Another reason for my neighbour's choice of Dutch!
P

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Pete Milne, Quo Vadis, Europe

ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 17:00 #102061

I am pretty sure any country can issue an ENI to a ship of any registry - and to an owner of any nationality. It's about the ship, not the owner.
My Belgian neighbour in Belguim, with a boat of no known registry(!), recently received a Dutch ENI from her Dutch CCB inspector. It's possible that a country may set arbitrary restrictions - or that Surveyors don't understand how something out of the ordinary works.

The Belgian inspection ceased to exist for a period when Commercials became a federal responsibility but Pleasurecraft were devolved to the regions (Flanders and Wallonia). Hence use of a Dutch company (Register Holland). Belgium existed well without a federal government for a couple of years, so anything's possible.

Simon - Which company did you use?

Pete

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Pete Milne, Quo Vadis, Europe

ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 14:08 #102060

Nigel Seaman wrote: Simon,
I have contacted the RYA last week and they know exactly what an ENI number is.
Please contact: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and request an application form.
All the best,
Nige


Hi Nige thanks fo that I have sent an email and am awaiting a reply, is it a straight forward process?

Cheers Simon

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ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 13:59 #102059

Simon,
I have contacted the RYA last week and they know exactly what an ENI number is.
Please contact: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and request an application form.
All the best,
Nige

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Nigel Seaman
Atyrau Ninja

ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 13:37 #102058

I asked the two surveyors that came to conduct the community certificate today about the changes that are coming and they said that there were no changes due for another 5 years or so and that a deadline of December is unheard of!?!?! Maybe not in Belgium!

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ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 13:20 #102057

Yes - we seem to be in a period of uncertainty!

The Dutch now seem to be saying that as long as you have booked your survey with a classification society they have all next year to certify as there is a shortage of surveyors in NL.
The Germans are applying a fudge factor of 0.25 or 0.35 to the 100 CUM rule.
The Belgians have awarded certificates to UK registered (and UK ENI) ships in the past - and seem to be continuing?
The French have now established a procedure - watch this space....

I am working with a European Boating Association team to propose changes to Chapter 26 of ES-TRIN and hopefulllymake it simpler. It is up for review next year with CESNI (the committee that decides these things). More info in my EBA report when I get it written up!
The following user(s) said Thank You: Tam Murrell, Sam Archer

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Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 12:45 #102056

Colin Stone wrote: Simon,

Think the ENI will/should be issued by the country of ship registration?? So if Belgium registered they should issue the ENI?


That’s what I would have thought however according to the Belgium authorities they can only issue it to a Belgium resident and as a UK resident it has to be issued by the UK authorities!
What is interesting is that I was concerned about the registration of the ship in my name and was lead to believe that in order to keep it as a Belgium register d vessel I also needed to be a Belgium Resident however when the surveyors visited today they updated my tonnage certificate with my details and informed me that they would update their register too meaning it is now registered in my name in Belgium.

Nothing seems straightforward and finding out definitive answers to many questions seems almost impossible-either that or because each county has its own rules things seem to get complicated!

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ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 12:26 #102055

Simon,

Think the ENI will/should be issued by the country of ship registration?? So if Belgium registered they should issue the ENI?

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Colin Stone
KEI
www.luxe-motor.kei.co.uk

ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 12:15 #102054

Thanks Andy
That’s really useful information and I do not know why the RYA had no knowledge of the ENI number!
I have emailed them and requested an application form.

I presume there will be no hurdles to jump over in obtaining the number?

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ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 12:05 #102053

Hello Simon,

Not sure why the RYA did not know the answer - ENI even has its own RYA address:

The RYA is appointed by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency as the competent authority in the UK for issue of ENI numbers. A vessel can only ever be attributed one number which remains with it for its lifetime. If you need to apply for an ENI number, please email This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. to request an application form.

The issue of an ENI of itself does not involve any assessment of seaworthiness or hull condition, so it gives no indication as to the condition of a vessel, nor does it mean that your vessel complies with the Directive.

( www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/boating-abroad/european-inland-waterways/Pages/technical-requirements-for-inland-waterways-vessels.aspx )
The following user(s) said Thank You: simon

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Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

ENI-ESTRIN-community certificate?? 24 Oct 2018 11:59 #102052

Why is nothing straightforward?!?!?
We have just had the inspection for our Community certificate and everything went ok EXCEPT we now need to obtain an ENI number of which the Belgium autorities will issue one to us as we are Not Belgium residents- The barge is at least registered in my name with the Belgium authorities.
I have spoken to the RYA-the BMF and the ships register who all have no idea what an ENI number is or how to obtain one-the ships register even suggested asking the DBA-so here I am asking!

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