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TOPIC: More on ES-TRIN in NL

More on ES-TRIN in NL 13 Nov 2018 21:53 #102397

Hello Chris,

Yes - Chapter 9 goes on at length about after treatment systems, alarms and duplicated systems.

Chapter 9 copies much of its texts directly from the Non Road Mobile Machinery directive which does not apply to ships so there is some challenging to be done.

I suspect that very few builders have caught up with the new rules yet - and they will not necessarily be transposed into national legislation for a while - and there will be some ducking and diving to come - as we have seen in both NL and FR on ES-TRIN.

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Andy Soper
DBA Director
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

More on ES-TRIN in NL 13 Nov 2018 18:47 #102388

  • Colin Stone
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I was looking at cleaning out a VW DPF. Not helped by being a welded case, but once out of the case it was a question of foot on top of ceramic core and reverse flush through with a pressure washer to remove the ash. I recall lorry size DPFs are bolted canisters so shouldn't be too difficult to remove. There are a number of companies cleaning DPFs. But I reckon a reasonable DIY job.

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Colin Stone
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More on ES-TRIN in NL 13 Nov 2018 18:35 #102387

Andy Soper wrote: Hello Balliol and others...
Yes - Chapter 9 on Engines is new in ES-TRIN 2017 and one that we are chsllenging through the European Boating Associaition. Unfortunately it derives from another EU Directive 2016/1628 which removed the option of replacing your old DAF with a refurbished one and requires the replacement engine to have full type approval AND or the engine to be certified to meet emission standards once installed in the vessel. This probably puts any relaxation outside the authority of CESNI (who write ES-TRIN) but that is the route we must take to challenge it.

Chapter 24 is for 'Traditional Vessels' and enables some relaxations under close scrutiny but the Chapter aso includes 'All component parts, fitting out and equipment not included in the state of the shipbuilding, fitting out and equipment of the chosen time period shall meet all applicable provisions of Parts II and III of this Standard.' So again a replacement engine would need to be type approved.

A further problem is that type approved engines are in short supply and even the truck manufacturers are having problems.......


Thanks Andy.

I have spent most of my working life reading standards, and am heartily fed up with it, so thanks for your reading and input.

It looks as if we have to take a Trigger's broom approach to our old Daf's, unless we can afford a new engine. With older historically interesting engines (Brons/Kromhaut/Industrie.....) I guess they can be rebuilt, as per the lovely article about the 1904 Rennes in the last Bokkepoot magazine.

Balliol.

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More on ES-TRIN in NL 13 Nov 2018 18:15 #102384

Thanks Andy for that clarification, I did take it to mean what you describe when discussing possible replacement engine with our ES-TRIN surveyor in April.

I wonder what the situation is with new builds and if engines being fitted need to be, or indeed are approved and tested in place. Perhaps this would apply to >20m new builds or any size?

For lorries to meet emissions standards they need to have fitted exhaust particulate filters and usually an Adblue catalyst system for removing NOX. This could create a whole new chapter for barge maintenance as it requires regular 'back to factory' filter cleaning which on lorries is part of the regular service as well as the topping up of Adblue.

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More on ES-TRIN in NL 13 Nov 2018 16:41 #102383

Hello Balliol and others...
Yes - Chapter 9 on Engines is new in ES-TRIN 2017 and one that we are chsllenging through the European Boating Associaition. Unfortunately it derives from another EU Directive 2016/1628 which removed the option of replacing your old DAF with a refurbished one and requires the replacement engine to have full type approval AND or the engine to be certified to meet emission standards once installed in the vessel. This probably puts any relaxation outside the authority of CESNI (who write ES-TRIN) but that is the route we must take to challenge it.

Chapter 24 is for 'Traditional Vessels' and enables some relaxations under close scrutiny but the Chapter aso includes 'All component parts, fitting out and equipment not included in the state of the shipbuilding, fitting out and equipment of the chosen time period shall meet all applicable provisions of Parts II and III of this Standard.' So again a replacement engine would need to be type approved.

A further problem is that type approved engines are in short supply and even the truck manufacturers are having problems.......
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Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

More on ES-TRIN in NL 13 Nov 2018 12:05 #102375

  • Tim Hackett
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Hi Balliol...... If you have a minute or two could you expand a bit on that last posting please?

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Tim & Jo Hackett plus moggie
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Dutch Barges are only built in the Netherlands. Anywhere else is something else.

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More on ES-TRIN in NL 10 Nov 2018 12:17 #102331

My apologies but I may have been wrong about engines in my last post. I now see that all of Chapter 9 apparently applies, which makes it quite frightening in respect of old engines. I started looking at the traditional craft exemptions until the grey mists wafted over. I think that we have to wait until we see how the specificall trained ES-TRIN surveyors apply the rules.

Balliol.

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More on ES-TRIN in NL 09 Nov 2018 21:38 #102321

Tam Murrell wrote: As I understand it engines could be the most problematic thing. Once all 'grandfather rights' are withdrawn engines will have to comply with current emission etc requirements, and few 'vintage' engines would be capable of compliance.

Tam


Hi Tam,

I lost touch with the emission rules as the situation changed constantly for a few years, certainly so far as the RCD was concerned, but I think an existing engine remains OK. It is not something you will have to change to secure compliance. It is something that will have to comply if you need or want to change it. Most old engines worth keeping are reconditionable if the parts are available or can be made.

Collision bulkheads (for example) may be an immediate requirement for compliance, which might be difficult if they need to go through the middle of the bed.

Balliol.

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More on ES-TRIN in NL 09 Nov 2018 17:45 #102316

Hi Balliol
I was at the dry dock in Saint Jean de Losne (only one for many, many miles. The next vacant week that they have available is in next September, yes 2019.

Picking up on Chris' point few barge owners in this area are DBA members, some Swiss are members of a similar club with the almost unpronounceable name of Schweizerischer Schleusenschiffer Klub (www.ssk-cse,ch) who are giving information.

Best
Paul

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More on ES-TRIN in NL 09 Nov 2018 17:29 #102314

As I understand it engines could be the most problematic thing. Once all 'grandfather rights' are withdrawn engines will have to comply with current emission etc requirements, and few 'vintage' engines would be capable of compliance.

Tam

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More on ES-TRIN in NL 09 Nov 2018 17:25 #102313

It sounds as if some people (including Vaarwijzer) have had their head in the sand, but I suppose that is not difficult in NL.

I guess the problem might actually be greater in France than in NL in practical terms (distance to docks etc), but it might be useful to some to know if there is any dispensation still in France.

I do think that the talk about scrapping is a bit excitable. Even without the derogations there are not many issues that would seriously affect a well found safe pleasure boat. Collision bulkheads and location of fuel tanks are two that spring to mind. The other point might be that (as was discussed recently in another thread) surveyors do still have a degree of discretion, unlike BSS in the UK now. If the ship is too difficult to make compliant then perhaps it does merit scrapping! However, we do have to wait and see just how surveyors interpret the requirements for an old, non-RCD compliant barge that is suddenly a new boat.

Balliol.

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More on ES-TRIN in NL 09 Nov 2018 10:41 #102304

Colin Stone wrote: From yesterday's Vaarwijzer:
Last Thursday it was November 1st. A date that was of great importance for owners of ships longer than 20 meters. By the end of this year, vessels longer than 20 meters or with a block size length x width x draft greater than 100 m3 must be provided with the so-called Certificate of Investigation (CvO or CBB). Until 30 December existing ships can still receive the certificate without having to meet the requirements for modern new-build vessels. We wrote about that before.


Colin, I've already mentioned this extract in December Blue Flag, it's very worrying for NL ships and possibly several in France and Belgium too. One option would be to sell to a UK owner at a bargain price, otherwise it looks like static house boat and tow to dry dock for insurance survey in the future.

It's all the more shocking when you consider they have had over ten years notice to comply and most of the surveyors are NL based. Then again, I hear from other Dutch sources that many of the affected owners do not belong to clubs such as DBA or LVBHB and have had no information from other sources so we can be glad that DBA have for many years brought this information to the attention of members, allowing them plenty of time to obtain what is not really a difficult or expensive certification, particularly if combined with an out of water insurance hull survey. The rest is not much more than UK BSS standards and safety common sense.
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More on ES-TRIN in NL 09 Nov 2018 09:40 #102303

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From yesterday's Vaarwijzer:

Last Thursday it was November 1st. A date that was of great importance for owners of ships longer than 20 meters. By the end of this year, vessels longer than 20 meters or with a block size length x width x draft greater than 100 m3 must be provided with the so-called Certificate of Investigation (CvO or CBB). Until 30 December existing ships can still receive the certificate without having to meet the requirements for modern new-build vessels. We wrote about that before.

Why is November 1 so important? About halfway through this year it became clear that it is impossible to get all vessels and sailing equipment that it concerns before 30 December all inspected. There are not enough inspectors and because a ship also has to be dry before the inspection and possible adjustments have to be made, owners are also in danger of getting in trouble because there is insufficient capacity at shipyards and slopes. The minister has therefore opted for a practical solution. Owners who have applied for certification before 1 November 2018 will be given a longer time to complete the procedure and make any adjustments. However, owners who have not started certification before Thursday last week may have a problem now. Their ships must have a CoC / CBB by 30 December at the latest and if this does not work their ship must comply with other and stricter requirements.

Especially from the circle of owners of historic ships it now seems that for ships that will soon have no CvO, the demolition threatens. On the other hand, it has long been known that these ships must have a certificate by the end of this year. And nowhere in the rules says that a non-certified ship must be demolished. A ship without a certificate will no longer be allowed to sail independently. For a ship that is used as a houseboat, for example, that does not have to be a problem. Certification under the new rules is feasible for many ships, but it can affect the historical character and will also entail extra costs.
One thing is certain; ships for which no certification process has now started, have suddenly become much less valuable. If that has also penetrated the relevant owners, then that may even mean salvation if they are bought by people who are willing to invest in the adjustments. Indeed, many historic ships are still being neglected in channels and waiting for better times.
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Colin Stone
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