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TOPIC: Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter

Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 12 Oct 2019 14:19 #110342

Thanks Colin,

New rules in NL

Have contacted my NL colleagues. They do not know of any certified equipment - but this has set a hare running! We will discuss further and share knowledge at the European Boating Association meeting next week.
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Andy Soper
DBA Director Representation and Treasurer
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 11 Oct 2019 08:12 #110301

  • Tim Cahill-O'Brien
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Lectrasan make one that is allowed direct discharge in the US.

Also an add to my earlier post. The North East of the Netherlamds which is full of German boats has pumpouts with the rubber hoses that dont need screw adapters. They always work are very frequently used unlike Holland.

Tim

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Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 11 Oct 2019 07:59 #110300

No an adapter, but a closely related item in an extract from Vaarwijzer Nieuwsbrief.

From 1 October 2019 there is a new regulation with regard to the discharge of toilet water from recreational vessels. The Regulation on discharge outside establishments has been supplemented, so that it is now permitted under certain conditions to discharge toilet water from recreational vessels. Minister Van Nieuwenhuizen of Infrastructure and Water Management has announced this. The new rules now permit the purification of toilet water on board recreational vessels. Toilet water that has been passed through a purification facility on board and that meets the set requirements can therefore be discharged from now on.

By Google translate.

More at www.varendoejesamen.nl/kenniscentrum/artikel/gezuiverd-toiletwater-recreatieschepen-mag-voortaan-geloosd-worden

Does anyone know of any equipment??
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Colin Stone
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DBA - The Barge Association
DBA - De Binnenvaartvereniging
DBA - L’Association des Péniches de Plaisance

Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 19 Jul 2019 09:35 #107774

  • Tim Cahill-O'Brien
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Thank you all for the helpful responses. I will be heading up to Friesland in August and will certainly be staying at the Marrekrite moorings. My boat is wintering in Sneek.

The USA may seem oversensitive to pollution by EU standards, but the USA is also the biggest polluter. I have had German friends complain about the crackdown on Car emissions, but you only have to see the air quality in LA with its 10 million cars to see why the rules are there. I had a house by huge Lake Tahoe, and boats there are gradually being regulated away - soon there will be a total ban. I'm now living on Gozo, Malta when not on the boat and it has some of the clearest sea and best scuba diving in the world. When there is any discharge into the sea by accident, the whole island demands immediate action. - its a mindset that the water must be protected to preserve the natural beauty of the island on which everyones living depends.

With everything in the news this year I feel it is especially important to be a good guest when travelling in other countries in the EU. No issues in the Netherlands, but many people in France think anyone with a boat is rich. We don't want to be targets. We rely on the DBA to advocate for us to keep our access to the canals open and to make improvements to the waterways so they stay open. The locals need to look at visiting boats in the most positive light.

The Netherlands is a wonderful place to cruise. Like many I had an initial plan of buy a boat here and get to France. But I am liking it more and more and may never make it to France at this rate. Its spotlessly clean, but in the National Parks, if you go to any boat access beach and walk 50 meters inland, the paths are strewn with toilet paper. Someone does come and clean it up each week. They just need to put in a portaloo.

I have dogs and when I walk them at home in Ireland and pick up the poo with a doggie bag over my hand, most of my Irish friends think that's disgusting. My view is leaving the poo on the path is disgusting. Walking in Dublin you have to keep your eyes down and watch where you step.

I am actually a big fan of the composting toilets. Everyone I've met who hasn't put one in is very negative, but I've never met anyone who has actually installed one who isn't a huge fan. Check out the videos by Gonewiththewynns on youtube. Even with a proper holding tank system, the hoses are always smelly and the pumpout experience is always unpleasant. It is true that you are still throwing away the composted poo, but it is more like black soil when the loo is finished with it and it has no smell. The pee is sterile anyway and can be discharged overboard as the toilet keeps it separate. Loads of boats in the USA are converting to them and there is always a big crowd at their stalls at the boatshows. I would certainly go that route first rather then retrofit a holding tank into an older barge.

Regarding the fitting, I have a threaded Leesan fitting now and will file a lip into the top opening so that I can hold the threaded hose end into the fitting when pumping out. I think it should work.

Thanks for all your good suggestions.

Tim

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Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 18 Jul 2019 23:31 #107770

@Tim having also a boat on the Ohio river, I know the sentiment in the USA. And yes our marina HAS a working coin operated pump out ( for about 150 boats, from which only 75 are large enough to have a toilet onboard...remember the need for speed with US boaters, that is why our 51 ft has 700 HP)
Now the Ohio river has a flow of 2,000 Cubic Meter/ second. = 2,000,000 Liter/second. ( based on 72 kcfs reading). Being Dutch I do drink close to a US gallon ( 3.8 L) Milk a day and when in the USA I do eat the larger portions ( no wonder I am fat)..... So I have NO problem dumping overboard whatever comes out. Since birds will drop more in the river than I do. ( see a typical Dutch answer)
( and NO I am NOT dumping on the somewhat oversensitivity of Americans in regards to effluence of boats.).
If you really do the calculation, you will see that pollution by industries and agriculture is a much larger problem.

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Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 18 Jul 2019 21:37 #107768

Hello Tim,

I doubt that the consensus in the DBA is dump the poo in the river / canal / waterway. Some postings may suggest that but.........

In UK both EA and CRT insist that no overboard discharges of sewage are allowed

Marrekrite in Friesland used to offer a free pump-out boat - now defunct - but replaced by three stand alone solar powered shore facilities.

The Dutch used to deploy elsan toilets to the islands on their waterways but decided that 'take it home' was the better idea - porta-potti or pump-out. Unfortunately this ignored the small man-powered and sailing craft. The drainage ditches on the islands soon became loos.

Dutch law requires marinas with 50 boats or more to provide a pump-out - but didn't specify where - so often at the inland end of the marina and can be inaccessible to our barges.

Belgium is way behind - only just caught up with the EU Directive on town sewage after years of EU fines for breach. Remember the Meuse and Sambre both discharge from Belgium into the Netherlands through the Maas.

France has laws but no enforcement!

From my discussions over many years I think DBA members are likely to be at the responsible end of the spectrum using the Waterways Guide and the Wateralmanaak for NL and BE to plan their discharges into approved facilities. But we have all been caught out from time to time and an emergency discharge into a river rarely adds to the overall pollution as dilution is surprisingly effective from both boat and sewage 'treatment' works discharge.

And almost the last word from an anonymous Dutchman - 'When the aalscholver (Cormorants) stop shitting in the Ijsselmeer I will too'

There is no easy answer - we should all do the best we can to minimise pollution.

(PS composting toilets are not the answer- unless you really do compost it - not just bag it and chuck it!)

(Cinderella toilets burn power! And don't allow quick follow on!)

Each to his own!
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Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director Representation and Treasurer
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 18 Jul 2019 21:02 #107766

Nigel Crompton wrote: Often in Nl & Be the pump-out facility hose has a conical rubber fitting; no adapter required, the user just holds it in situ.


To return to Tim's original question I think Nigel has the answer. Leesan sell these and they may be viewed at:

www.leesan.com/shop/pump-out-accessories/pump-out-adaptors/leesan-universal-rubber-cone-adaptor.aspx

We saw this simple system in operation recently when boat after boat would stop at the site, unroll the hose and place the conical rubber fitting straight into their deck fitting, hold it in place, if necessary, and were away, all done in minutes. I suggest you could attach one of these to the threaded pump-out hose fitting and secure it with a jubilee clip.

If you are in, or near, Friesland you could take advantage of the Marrekrite free solar powered pump-out stations. There are only three at the moment but I can vouch for their efficiency and their green credentials. As I say, they are powered by the sun, they take your stuff, deal with it in an on board treatment system them pump out the residual, acceptably clean, water back into the water course.

Not having a deck fitting for pumping out our MSD, and needing to enter the tank from the inspection hatch on the top surface of the tank, I removed the conical rubber fitting and attached a short length of Lee Sanitation hose, securing it with a jubilee clip. This worked a dream and I can't speak highly enough for these Marrekrite pump out facilities.

When I said free you do need to buy a Marrekrite flag for the princely sum of €15. This gives you access to thousands of free moorings, many with rubbish containers, and the three pump-out stations... and lots more if you want to cycle or walk.

Best wishes,

Bob
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Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 18 Jul 2019 18:34 #107762

Tim Cahill-O'Brien wrote: I know that the folks in campers often also have challenges with finding a place to empty their vehicle cartridge tanks.

In UK p'raps but not on the continent. There are thousands of purpose built service points and most (not all in France anyway) allow black and grey water disposal for free, having a slotmeter for water and power supply. We know where they are from online databases that are updated much the same way as our waterways guide.
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Cheers 'n' Beers

Nigel Crompton
Meander in Belgium

Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 18 Jul 2019 16:47 #107758

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I agree 100%.

In places like the Netherlands, where such a large percentage of the population are involved with boats and barges, I guess the way its setup is they way that they want it. If they didn't the capable Dutch would do things differently.

I do worry about places like France where hardly any of the French are on the river in boats and they mainly use the canals for fishing. I wonder how long it will be before the French get fed up with fishing or swimming in a foreign boats thin brown line. In too many places around the developed Boats=pollution. Most of us on their rivers are guests in their country. I know that the folks in campers often also have challenges with finding a place to empty their vehicle cartridge tanks. But you dont see thin brown lines on the roadways.

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Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 18 Jul 2019 16:33 #107757

The consensus at the DBA is that its ok to just dump it in the river

I don't think that's the consensus here at all. It's just that in the absence of pumpout facilities for a black tank - or a composting toilet or an onboard processing plant (see BF130) - there is little alternative. Larger barges can rarely get to a pumpout tucked in the corner of a marina.
I am certainly happier about boats leaving a thin brown trail as they travel rather than dumping an entire black tank in one spot, as I've seen a woonboot do in Holland. Phew!
For bigger boats the future has to be composting or processing, which I'm actively considering instead of the thin brown trail - or the holding tank.

Pete
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Pete Milne, Quo Vadis , Gent.

Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 18 Jul 2019 15:11 #107755

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I think it all boils down to the local culture to some degree. All the same arguments could be made about the toilets in our houses - they block, are expensive to maintain, people don't know how to use them properly etc - just ask any landlord, yet we would not live in a house without a toilet - unless of course you live in a culture that doesn't yet have universal toilet usage such as India. The government there is running a campaign to get people to use indoor toilets - google the campaign - "take your poo to the loo', but many people don't like to use them, even when they are provided for free. More than half the population go outside every day.

The consensus at the DBA is that its ok to just dump it in the river - the solution to pollution is dilution and all that, but coming from the USA, where adherence to the no black water discharge is universal, I find this difficult to accept. In the USA, you would no more dump your black tank in the river tank, than a Brit would pull his car over to the side of the road in a town and go #2 on the side of the road. You would just not contemplate doing such a thing.

There has to be a better solution.

Also I don't think its all commercial reasons. I was at the dock in Gouda last week and the pump out at the town quays was not working with no plans to get it fixed. It was a coin-op machine, but the maintenance of the machine would be done by city employees and this is a town that relies on mostly non boating tourists. There can be no commercial reason for this - like many places in Holland they keep the city streets spotlessly clean and are constantly looking for something to cleanup. Fixing that pumpout could be done as part of an existing workers tasks. Someone just has to decide that the water quality is important.

Tim - from the USA West where 'Whiskey is for Drinkin and Water is for Fightin'

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Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 18 Jul 2019 14:44 #107754

Often in Nl & Be the pump-out facility hose has a conical rubber fitting; no adapter required, the user just holds it in situ.
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Cheers 'n' Beers

Nigel Crompton
Meander in Belgium

Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 18 Jul 2019 12:34 #107744

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Peter Smith wrote: The locals in our NL marina don't use a pump out , it's straight over the side with no tanks to store or accumulate stuff.
The reason the shore fittings are poorly maintained is the income is far below the cost to operate the pump out. The Dutch know the value of a Euro and if the numbers don't work nor does the process.


Very true. In the UK the imposition of the requirement for black water containment was only achieved because the then numerous hire boat yards had to install the facility for their own boats, so made the service available to the public to defray costs (definitely not make money!) When we closed down our last hire fleet in 1997 the first boatyard service to stop was the pump-out, because it was simply not viable to maintain and staff for the limited trade there was, which always seemed to arrive just as you were closing, pleading that their toilet was overflowing, and that would be the one that was blocked and which the last yard had been unable to empty!The best way to make an enemy was to refuse to provide a pump out! Many other hire fleets have closed down since then, and along with them have gone the pump out units.

Since then, coin-op or token operated shore pump out units have become more available (Leesan sell them) but they are an absolute pain to maintain for all the reasons of blockages, damaged hoses (crushed, kinked or ripped by boats) etc. Many boat holding tank systems are poorly installed or incorrectly used and clearing blockages, both in the boat or drawn into the pump out system is an onerous job, with no extra money in it for the yard, just unhappy customers.

We have had a self-serve pump out facility here in Veurne for over 20 years, but nobody knows if it works and I have never seen it used.

In the UK many private owners have their own on board pumps (either portable or installed) and that will be the way to go provided suitable sewer connections are made available on shore.

Balliol.
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Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 18 Jul 2019 12:34 #107743

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Thanks Bob,

I was able to find a threaded adapter similar to this one. locally for about 58 euro.

www.leesan.com/shop/pump-out-accessories/pump-out-adaptors/leesan-pump-out-adaptor-1-1-2inch-bsp.aspx

It does screw into my deck fitting but the female recepticle on the fitting for the pumpout hose is smooth walled and not threaded so it still doesnt fit. I may take a file to it to try to make it work but I dont really want to do that only to find it wont work when I get to Germany and I need another adapter. This is similar to the pumpout hoses I've used in the USA where the nozzle at the end of the hose is a rubber cone that makes a seal when you push it into the deck fitting. The problem is that the hoses used in the netherlands have a threaded male end. I can only assume that they decided to not implement the standards for some reason. My current marina is popular with swimmers has a 'Blue Flag' which I know is a huge deal in other countries so I dont really want to discharge directly overboard.

With over 300 pumpouts installed and 35000 boats you would think there would be an off the shelf solution. I also read here recently that the Waal river police have been inspecting boats and fining those who have their toilets set to discharge overboard. On the otherhand noone Ive spoken to seems concerned about it.

It may just be one of those dutch things that you just deal with.

Tim

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Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 18 Jul 2019 11:44 #107739

Tim Cahill-O'Brien wrote: My new to me boat has the standard 1.5 inch threaded deck fitting and I see the same fitting available for sale at chandleries all over the Netherlands. The pumpouts all across the country all seem to use a 1.75 inch (or close metric) thread. I have been looking everywhere for an adapter that will allow the standard threaded hose to screw to the deck fitting but have not been able to find one. Can anyone suggest a source.
.


I suggest you give Lee Sanitation a call. They, in partnership with a European company, produced and installed very many pump-out facilities all around Europe.

There are adaptors on their website at:

www.leesan.com/search?q=pump+out

Their telephone number is: +44 (0)1295 770000
Email: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Website: lessan.com

Cheers,

Bob
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Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 18 Jul 2019 11:22 #107737

So you require a 1.75 inch? Fitting with a reducer from 1.75 inch to 1.5 inch from a engineering supplier..
The locals in our NL marina don't use a pump out , it's straight over the side with no tanks to store or accumulate stuff.
The reason the shore fittings are poorly maintained is the income is far below the cost to operate the pump out. The Dutch know the value of a Euro and if the numbers don't work nor does the process.
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Netherlands black tank pumpout hose adapter 18 Jul 2019 08:49 #107732

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My new to me boat has the standard 1.5 inch threaded deck fitting and I see the same fitting available for sale at chandleries all over the Netherlands. The pumpouts all across the country all seem to use a 1.75 inch (or close metric) thread. I have been looking everywhere for an adapter that will allow the standard threaded hose to screw to the deck fitting but have not been able to find one. Can anyone suggest a source.

From what I have seen in the Netherlands, at least two thirds of all the installed pumpouts are not in working order with no urgency on fixing them. In a country with perfect maintenance everywhere and where absolutely everything seems to work all the time this seems suprising. None of my neighbours in the marina have any suggestions on how to resolve my problem thought they all seem to have the same issue. I could draw a few conclusions about compliance with the no discharge rule form this.

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