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TOPIC: Mooring leaseholds

Mooring leaseholds 04 Nov 2019 20:49 #111151

The law, like the mills of God, has a tendency to grind slowly.

Tam Murrell wrote: I assume this was resolved, but it's a pity Aker has not got back to say how he got on.

Tam

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Mooring leaseholds 04 Nov 2019 17:29 #111144

I assume this was resolved, but it's a pity Aker has not got back to say how he got on.

Tam

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Mooring leaseholds 21 Oct 2019 17:19 #110732

I was simply going on what has been said: "it is considered a residential lease".

Any high street solicitor should be able to verify that. If the neighbours have got hold of the wrong end of the stick, then things might perhaps be more complicated.

However, since the specific issue is the matter of service charges I don't imagine it will be beyond the capabilities of Messrs Sue, Grabbit, and Runne to sort out.

Tam Murrell wrote: It's still not quite as simple as that, but probably still depends to a large extent upon what it is that Aker is leasing - land or mooring rights. Boats - even those that are lived on - are a chattel tied against the land. If the argument is simply about the cost of services most lawyers should be able to deal with it, but it would have to involve quite a major problem to be worth the cost. If it is about the land then that is a different ballpark, as land with mooring rights is a rather specialised area.

Tam

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Mooring leaseholds 21 Oct 2019 10:05 #110699

It's still not quite as simple as that, but probably still depends to a large extent upon what it is that Aker is leasing - land or mooring rights. Boats - even those that are lived on - are a chattel tied against the land. If the argument is simply about the cost of services most lawyers should be able to deal with it, but it would have to involve quite a major problem to be worth the cost. If it is about the land then that is a different ballpark, as land with mooring rights is a rather specialised area.

Tam

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Mooring leaseholds 21 Oct 2019 08:07 #110697

John Forbes wrote: No, Peter, the first step is to find the lease agreement and read it.


John was right and my initial assumption was wrong.
:)

Glad to see you're getting somewhere now, Aker. John's right of course - in that case, if you can't solve the matter amicably with the help of your neighbours and with common sense all round, then any good lawyer will do.

Pete Clark

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Pete Clark
Nooit Gedacht

Mooring leaseholds 21 Oct 2019 00:29 #110693

Oh, and by the way.

If have a residential property lease, then you need a lawyer who specialises in residential property - any high street solicitor in other words. You are not seeking the best jurisdiction in which to register a leaky oil tanker, so forget about maritime lawyers. It's the lease we are discussing, not the boat.

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Mooring leaseholds 21 Oct 2019 00:17 #110692

Saul,

I am very glad that there is a valid reason why you haven't read your lease agreement, and if in fact it counts (somewhat surprisingly) as a residential lease then you have a number of very useful legal rights and protections, including possibly the right to buy the freehold. You should certainly look into this possibility.

But keep talking to the neighbours. They have probably asked all the questions you are asking, and you wouldn't want to spend money on lawyers unnecessarily.

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Mooring leaseholds 20 Oct 2019 18:29 #110679

  • Saul Akerman
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Hi.
Me lease is on a different computer so I haven’t been able to get near it.
However one of my neighbours has informed me that in the lease (everyone was correct that I should have started there, thanks) we are considered a residential lease. The same as a flat or house. There are also details of what the freeholder should provide us with in regards to accounts etc. When I get to work I will read the lease I have properly in case it is different as we bought at different times.
If they don’t provide us with the books then I may consult a lawyer. I will also make sure they are familiar with boats.
Thanks all.
Will keep you informed although there is a chance they read this site as well. ;)

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Mooring leaseholds 20 Oct 2019 11:46 #110659

Pete,

To me, Saul's questions suggested that he hadn't read the agreement. Had he done so, I would expect that his questions would have been much less general than "Does anyone know what rights i have regarding the freeholder?".

In fact, although I didn't say so, I am wondering whether a written agreement exists at all, other than perhaps a receipt for money paid.

If there is a proper agreement,then the answers to most and probably all of his questions will be contained in it, and it may not be necessary to consult a lawyer.

As you mentioned, it may be that the lease permits the landlord to make a fixed charge in respect of certain services. But until he finds and reads the lease, Saul won't know.

So that's step one!






Pete Clark wrote: John, all I said was that I assumed Aker would already have reas the agreement. Why so touchy? Keep it for Brexit, chum.

Aker
Depending what you find, it could be helpful to othets to post a dummary hete.

Pete Clark

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Mooring leaseholds 20 Oct 2019 09:39 #110651

John, all I said was that I assumed Aker would already have reas the agreement. Why so touchy? Keep it for Brexit, chum.

Aker
Depending what you find, it could be helpful to othets to post a dummary hete.

Pete Clark
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Nooit Gedacht

Mooring leaseholds 20 Oct 2019 02:14 #110646

No, Peter, the first step is to find the lease agreement and read it.

It might possibly answer all Saul's questions, and without the agreement, the lawyer will find it very difficult to help.

There was no conjecture on my part. Perhaps a misreading on yours.

Pete Clark wrote:

John Forbes wrote: Find the document and read it.


I assumed this was already the case.

John Forbes wrote: And don't pay any service charge unless and until the landlord furnishes a proper accounting of the expenditure.


For all we know, the lease agreement might well include certain fixed charges without proof of expenditure.

As I said, all conjecture. Next stop: lawyer.

Pete Clark

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Mooring leaseholds 19 Oct 2019 13:18 #110619

Hi again Andrew.

Tam's advice looks very helpful and practical, which reminds me: like most professions, lawyers specialise. If you do look for a solicitor, shop around; make sure not just that they are experienced in land law (most are) but also as it applies specifically to boat moorings - some will but by no means all. There shpuld be at least one in the vicinity who has actual hands-on experience, which counts for a lot.

Pete Clark

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Nooit Gedacht

Mooring leaseholds 19 Oct 2019 07:58 #110616

John Forbes wrote: Find the document and read it.


I assumed this was already the case.

John Forbes wrote: And don't pay any service charge unless and until the landlord furnishes a proper accounting of the expenditure.


For all we know, the lease agreement might well include certain fixed charges without proof of expenditure.

As I said, all conjecture. Next stop: lawyer.

Pete Clark

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Nooit Gedacht

Mooring leaseholds 19 Oct 2019 00:34 #110610

Saul,

Your rights and obligations, and the landlord's rights and obligations. will all be spelt out in your lease agreement. Find the document and read it.

If the landlord is not fulfilling his obligations under the lease, then take him to court. This will of course mean employing a solicitor.

But first, find the document. Your solicitor won't be able to help you unless you can furnish him or her with the paperwork.

And don't pay any service charge unless and until the landlord furnishes a proper accounting of the expenditure.

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Mooring leaseholds 18 Oct 2019 23:27 #110609

You obviously do need to speak to a Lawyer, but I'm just trying to understand what exactly it is that you have bought. Have you leased a plot of canalside land on which to moor your boat, or simply a mooring agreement against land he owns?

Presumably your lease has a finite term, and from what you say the owner provides access and some form of services - electricity, water and rubbish disposal, possibly parking? I would certainly expect all services and any additional costs involved to be specified in some manner. Certainly your rights should be set out in the lease, and I'd expect against this to be mention of your obligations and any limits on what you can do. Also what happens at the end of the term or if you wish to sell the boat and/or the mooring rights.

Residential facilities rest in the boat, not in the land it is tied to, though in my experience the land owner should have planning consent. In most cases there is then an option to pay Council Tax as resident on the boat, or some element should be included in the business rates involved. Different Councils treat it in different ways. My experience is with moorings on canals, and rivers have Riperian Rights which can make a considerable difference.

Tam

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Mooring leaseholds 18 Oct 2019 19:44 #110607

  • John & Joanna Ascough
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Hi Aker
If you have a land registration number on your lease, you may be able to obtain full details from the Land Registry:
landregistry-deeds.co.uk/lease/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI742fuq2m5QIVWeDtCh0vfgXvEAAYAiAAEgIB8fD_BwE
just a thought, John

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Mooring leaseholds 18 Oct 2019 17:19 #110602

  • Saul Akerman
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Hi,,

This is what i thought to be fair, a lawyer will be needed,

Thanks

Aker

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Mooring leaseholds 18 Oct 2019 16:50 #110598

Sorry, Saul (Aker?), but unless you can find someone with an identical purchase contract, at the same or similar moorings, within roughly the same time period, who has already solved roughly the same problem(s?) as you find yourself facing, and who can advise you accurately of their direct experience (an unlikely comination), to get a reliable answer to your question(?s) you're going to have to engage a solicitor.

For a start, you mention almost in one breath "leasehold" and "freehold": barring clear wording to that effect in the contract, it's either the one or the other, not both. If the contract of sale does not specify the nature of the transaction, then a partial answer might be found in the Land Registry (but might not). However, your later question seems more related to a "service charge" rather than the nature of the contract. Is it the nature of the transaction or this service charge that is your particular worry? Or both?

The bad news, in my opinion, is that you need a lawyer. The good news - depending on the amount of money at stake compared to your legal fees - is that a solicitor will be able to help directly, not with vague supposition, as here.

Pete Clark
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Nooit Gedacht

Mooring leaseholds 18 Oct 2019 15:05 #110585

  • Saul Akerman
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Hi, We purchased a mooring on the Thames and want to find out the rights i have as the leaseholder. We are not counted as a residential lease but a commercial lease as the mooring is not a residence, the boat is. Does anyone know what rights i have regarding the freeholder? We have received no accounts and have a service charge that is not justified in any way. When we ask for info on the expenditure we get nothing back. Just ignored.
Has anyone else had this issue? If so any advice would be welcome.
thanks in advance

Aker

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