TOPIC: Insurance Update

Everyone:

1. Please make sure your insurance company is in the DBA Suppliers Directory
2. If you have a positive - or negative - experience with them, please add a review

That's the best way for your comments to reach other members after this conversation fades out!

If you add an insurer, you will need to wait for them to appear in the Directory before adding a review.

Thanks
Pete

I also got a EW/Northern Reef notice that coverage was being discontinued, but also had been looking.

As a US Citizen, US address, NL registered barge currently in Migennes, FR, I was able to get two resonable insurance quotes in early April. The first was from Global Yacht Cover, who I contacted directly, and was then referred by them to Laura Clothier of Topsail Insurance (This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.) to act as Broker. She was quite helpful and I promptly had a formal quote. The second quote (15% higher) came from Blue Water Insurance. They were helpful and responsive, but needed to be notified in advance of single handing, which I do often enough for it to be an issue.

As my insurance with Edward Williams/Northern Reef terms out late this month, I ignored EW's offer of another company, as I feared it would be one equally questionable in its practices as Northern Reef.

I hope the information above is helpful to some of you looking for coverage.

Regards all....

Yesterday I received noticed from Edwards Williams that NorthernReef was no longer trading and that they (Edward Williams) have found another insurance company for me. However, they would need additional money to finish out the last 2 months of the insurance period. Fortunately, with what Peter T. went thru with La Belle Helene in Roanne and his discussion on another post, along with this discussion, I had already started looking elsewhere.
I am a USA citizen with a Dutch registered barge located in Auxonne, FR. Using DNA as the broker, they were able to find insurance for me thru VIVAT in the NL. At first DNA told me they could not help me, however, after discussions with them, they did accept the marina address and went ahead with the quote.

Further to Pete's excellent note - MS-Amlin has a close relationship with DBA - if you ask for a quote via the website and are subsequently insured not only do you get a discount as a DBA member but DBA funds receive a contribution as well. The agreement with MS-Amlin also allows for access to the underwriter so if you are turned away it is worth telephoning and asking to talk to the underwriter as your circumstances may have been misunderstood and they may be able to point you to an MS-Amlin partner company in another country eg Belgium which may be able to offer cover.

I've explained a couple of times in this and other conversations that UK insurers generally discriminate on the boat's registration, while Continental insurers discriminate by the owners nationality! I have no idea why but that is the general pattern. There are of course exceptions!
A page in the DBA Knowledgebase lists known limitations by insurance companies.
It is important to recognise the difference between Brokers and Insurers. The Insurers have restrictons inposed by their underwriters, while Brokers will try to find an Insurer which meets the needs of a customer. For example, EOC in Netherlands is an Insurer, which minimises its charges by limiting its insurance to Benelux owners*. Its newish subsidiary, EOC Verzekeringadvies, is a broker which will place other owners with another insurer.
Larger insurance companies, like MS-Amlin , with related companies on the mainland can be more flexible than smaller companies like GJW and EOC. There is no 'one-size-fits-all.

Maybe not much help but it may explain a little.
Pete.

* This is confounded by Peter Smith's report on April 7, of being insured with EOC with an AU address. I think EOC's first check is to look for a Dutch address on the papers and they probably saw Peter's Marina address. They cancelled my insurance last year because I am British, thiugh with a Belgian address.
The staff who process applications (in any company) are probably relatively junior and probably not 100% consistent in applying the company's rules.

Our boat is french registered we live in southern Germany, GJW cancelled our insurance last year quoting Brexit. It is possible they will not insure any boat registered in the EU, and has nothing to do with where the owners live.

Maybe someone on here can confirm that, or give an explanation.

Also go t a hard no from them for a French flagged vessel owned by Americans - even with a French address

As an update to my post from march 30, we recently received the boat insurance policy for our USA registered barge resting in Sillery France. The policy was purchased and paid for at BlueWater Yacht Insurance in Florida. However, after being cancelled by GJW and told by other companies that UK companies cannot - or will not - I wasn't clear which - insure USA registered boats of US dwelling owners

---

the underwriter for and issuer of the insurance in London Marine, based in - London. UK. Moi, je ne comprehends pas. But at least we are insured.

I agree the decisions appear to be applied differently within the one organisation.
We have a Kadaster registered Netherlands barge which has used the same marina as a home base for the last eight years using an annual contract.
During this period we have been insured by EOC with an owners nationality of Australia and a Australian residential and POBox mail address.
We were invited by EOC to re-insure in February this year. We also received an invitation from EOC Verzekeringsadvies as well.
We reinsured with EOC and are still confused as to what they are doing in administration terms.

Thanks James

The Board does have this topic under regular discussion because of the fast-changing circumstances during Brexit and onwards. The problem is that the picture is not entirely clear and the issues are not universal, or decisions are applied differently, company by company and country by country. So the original position has shifted and affected all insurers in different ways.

I think, personally, everyone will be finding their way through it for the next year or two and DBA will then be assessing what is in the best interests of members at the end of all that. The truth is that, even before the current confusion, there were plenty of examples of different companies providing best and different solutions for individuals and we all make our decisions based on what fit our personal circumstances best which we certainly need to do at present.

Best wishes


Mike Gibbons
Chair

And when we (Aussies) were having to change our insurance of our Kadaster-registered barge in 2019, MS Amlin initially were unwilling to quote, but did so once we provided an EU address. And, of course, they do offer members a 10% discount. We eventually went via EOC Verzekeringsadvies/DNA

Ian

(Lisette & Ian)
Catharina Elisabeth

MS Amblin insures my Australian registered 17.5m barge for past 16 years. Not trying to prove anything. Just FYI.

EuroMarine is the latest to report they have no underwriters currently willing to insure Americans with a Dutch registered (Kadaster) flagged vessel. We are pursuing some of the other options that have been offered by members. Perhaps the DBA might consider not granting one insurer an inside track for insurance unless that insurer respects the true international breadth of the DBA membership.

I am happy to report that we have found insurance with Global Yacht Cover for our US-registered barge Kokoro, even though I am a US citizen. The cover was obtained through Zoe Adams at Aquarelle in Auxerre.

Would that it were that simple. Number of us in USA!USA!USA! (as the Guardian sports folks always refer to us) have been in touch with a multitude of marine insurance agencies in America, most of whom won't even respond to queries about insuring a boat that is in Europe. Most USA boat insurance is 1)commercial or 2)ocean going yachts and power boats of the Chris Craft sort or3) lake boats of various kinds. We finally found a Yacht insurance company that would take us on and we know another couple who found a different USA company, but it is not easy. And call yourself a pleasure craft, not a barge! And expect to have to do some explain and educating about inland waterways of Europe. WE got lucky with. BlueWater Yacht Insurance out of Florida.

> It has been well established in Forum conversations and enquiries to insurers that UK insurers tend to distinguish by flag (including MS=Amlin) and continental insurers discriminate by owner's nationality - so this is a new experience of MS-Amlin.

I suppose that's why I was hinting at the suggestion that a US citizen should consider registering his vessel in the US and look for a US insurer. Most (probably) of us do the same - we register our boats according to our own nationality and pick an insurer from our own country. No doubt there are many exceptions, but I'd venture to suggest, this is what the majority of us do and in most cases without difficulties in finding satisfactory cover.

Peter

Peter Cawson wrote: Perhaps as a general guide, it may be best to look for an insurer from your own country of citizenship, rather than one based where you wish to cruise, or the UK for that matter. ......
The flag at the stern should not affect the insurance........

It has been well established in Forum conversations and enquiries to insurers that UK insurers tend to distinguish by flag (including MS=Amlin) and continental insurers discriminate by owner's nationality - so this is a new experience of MS-Amlin.
However, using a broker, rather than an insurer directly, can be more successful as the broker has access to many insurers. Several are listed in the DBA Suppliers Directiory and known restrictions are listed in the Knowledgebase under Insurance .

Pete

> I just received notification from them that, despite having a Dutch flagged boat, they could not insure US citizens using a US mailing address.

Perhaps as a general guide, it may be best to look for an insurer from your own country of citizenship, rather than one based where you wish to cruise, or the UK for that matter.

I have insurance from a UK company as I am British, despite my cruising being entirely outside the UK. There must surely be US companies prepared to cover your EU-based vessel? The flag at the stern should not affect the insurance, but again, it is generally good to use the flag of the owner's nationality, though I know there are some owners of classic Dutch barges who choose to keep them on the Dutch Kadester and flying a Dutch ensign.

As Mike has suggested Euromarine may be worth your while contacting. I use them too and they were happy to include 2 new (Australian) co-owners onto my policy when I sold 2 x 25% shares.

Peter

Hi Jim

There's lots on various threads on here but it's not any insurance company's fault or lack of responsiveness. They can only insure what their underwriters will underwrite and this is a common problem for many companies this past year. MSAmlin have been very helpful with DBA and have a continuing commitment which they have re-emphasised in the light of Brexit, Covid-19 and, indeed, the issues that the marine insurance industry currently has to overcome. I'm sure you've trawled though the threads but if not then please do. It's causing issues for all sorts of people in different countries so it's not to do which side of the pond you live.

I'm actually not with MSAmlin because our risk as a syndicate boat makes it hard to find an insurer which took a lot of hunting to find someone which, in our case, was Euromarine which has provided us with very good advice ad cover for 13 years. So I know you have to hunt in some circumstances. And it's not to do with how difficult the individuals in our syndicate are though we have our moments of disagreement which has nothing to do with having had Americans, Australians, Northern Irish, English, Swedish, French in our group!

|Good luck!

Mike Gibbons
Chair

RE: MS Amlin "No Americans" policy

In my efforts to find an alternative to Edward Williams Marine/Northern Reef, I had made application to MS Amlin a few days ago. I just received notification from them that, despite having a Dutch flagged boat, they could not insure US citizens using a US mailing address. They implied they might reconsider if I had a different mailing address (which I don't). Not the most "member friendly" approach, at least for those of us from the US. I know some of us can be difficult at times (unfortunately) but I hardly think that makes us less insurable!!

So the search continues....

Jim Carswell

Thanks for that info on insurancemarine-online i will let anyone i know that is thinking on going down that line not to go near them Jan and I are with Pantaenius and so far found them very good to deal with

For clarity, as there are two Charles in this thread , this is the link to a doubtful insurance company which we suggest you avoid:

insurancemarine-online.com/

aka Edwards Williams Insurance

Charles:

The link you provided is to a broker for Edward William Marine Services. That company is listed in the DBA suppliers list, with many negative comments. For a more current tale of woe, I suggest you search recent posts. As such, that link is probably not one to be pursued, but each should make their own informed choice.

Jim Carswell

Spoke with DNA today. They gave a "hard no" to insuring a US-registered boat, especially if owned by an American.

I hate to be boring but....

PLEASE
Make sure any insurer you actually have experience of is in the Suppliers Directory - with a review of your experience, even about their prices.
If you've ever made a claim, add a review, to let others know more about the insurer.

Information here is great - but it gets very quickly lost! In the Directory it's easy for people to find when they need it.

Pete

Hi,
I insure through Winter and co-via Alan Peake, This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. Alan has been insuring my barges (9) for the last 50 years. There have been claims in that time all of which have been settled with the utmost dispatch. Alan insures all the Thames sailing barges and there have been major claims there, all sorted, over the years from collisions to a vessel hitting the lifting bridge on the Swale and stopping all the trains!! I can’t recommend him enough, even for simple advice. He knows the market inside out. Not always the absolute cheapest but what cost peace of mind knowing your barge is properly covered. CM

The important thing is to submit reviews of claims experience to the Suppliers Directory.

I have never had occasion to make an insurance claim, so have not submitted a review, but I have just submitted a review in another section, and it's very easy to do and takes no time at all.

Jakob Schröter wrote: I got insurance through the German broker Nobby ( nobby.eu ). Insurer is TVM.nl. Compared to the other German yacht insurers (Pantaenius, ...), prices were competitive.
No experience regarding claims, etc.

Richard Hyman wrote: We use GJW. Have made a couple of relatively small claims, both were handled correctly and with minimum bureaucracy.

PLEASE

• Make sure any insurer you actually have experience of is in the Suppliers Directory - with a review of your experience, even about their prices.
• If you've ever made a claim, add a review, to let others know more about the insurer.

Sharing experiences is the best way to help members through the insurance maze!

Pete

We use GJW. Have made a couple of relatively small claims, both were handled correctly and with minimum bureaucracy.

I got insurance through the German broker Nobby ( nobby.eu ). Insurer is TVM.nl. Compared to the other German yacht insurers (Pantaenius, ...), prices were competitive.
No experience regarding claims, etc.

On the Kiwi Afloat in Europe face book page this link came up don't know any more than that.
insurancemarine-online.com/

Attached is a table of insurers and brokers used by DBA members and reported limitations on who they can insure.

If you can add to the table, please post details here and I'll keep it updated.

This is not intended to be a discussion about insurers, just a fact-collection exercise, please.

Thanks
Pete