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TOPIC: Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN

Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 17 Jul 2020 11:24 #117395

  • Pete Milne
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Andy Soper wrote: To complete the information the SI number is the sequential number of the certificate issued by that country. It does need to be displayed on the vessel. (It is printed on every page of the certificate as a security check)

Which brings us full circle to my very simple question and the subject of this conversation -
Where or what is the requirement to have the SI number displayed or carved?

Pete

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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 17 Jul 2020 10:20 #117390

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Hello Balliol,

Thank you - Excelllent.

To complete the information the SI number is the sequential number of the certificate issued by that country. It does need to be displayed on the vessel. (It is printed on every page of the certificate as a security check)
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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 17 Jul 2020 09:08 #117387

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I think there is some overall confusion here, both amongst members and authorities. I will attempt to clarify, but I am not absolutely sure of the definitive answer in all respects and in all jurisdictions myself.

1. The “Meetbrief” (NL) is what the English inland system referred to as the “gauging book”. It is essentially a tabulation of the draft (“inzinking”) of a ship at various degrees of loading, ton by ton, used to establish tolls or harbour dues. The Belgians call it the “Certificate of Jaugeage” and for pleasure craft (that never load cargo) it is in a simplified form. On Dutch craft the Meetbrief number is usually carved into the ship sides fore and aft together with the appropriate draft lines for gauging.

2. A ship’s “Registration Number” is the number assigned to it by its national Registration authority, in the UK the Register of Shipping & Seamen, in NL the Kadaster. In NL it is the number issued by the Kadaster. Most countries will require this to be indelibly marked on the ship’s structure, usually the main beam, an engine bed or a bulkhead, by carving, welding or other means as prescribed by the relevant national authority. This marking sometimes needs to be certified, in the UK by the issue of a “Carving and Marking Note. In Belgium and NL the number is “Carved” by the certifying surveyor or tonnage measurer so a separate certification of marking is unnecessary. The number may change if the ship is re-registered, re-measured (for tonnage) or of course if moved to another country of registration. Thus on many old Dutch barges you may find several registration numbers carved in to the main beam, stern of cabin etc

3. The ENI is a unique identifying number invented under ES TRIN (formerly TRIWV) in Europe, and is a unique identifier for an individual ship that, in theory to date, will never change irrespective of ownership or jurisdiction within the EU. I have never seen any requirement for the ENI to be permanently marked on the vessel, but it must be displayed so as to be clearly visible from either side and the stern. Stick-on lettering is the norm.

In the early days of TRIWV the Belgians were (I believe mistakenly) asking for a Certificate of Jaugeage. I never argued because the process of tonnage measurement in order to produce the certificate was very simple and cheap. Whether they still require it I do not know.

The Dutch (Register Holland) did not require any tonnage measurement, and disregarded my own Belgian (and UK) one when I moved to the Dutch ES-TRIN system in 2018. They did not however issue a new ES-TRIN certificate but simply updated the relevant pages of my old Belgian TRIWV, which surprised me.

In the UK the “Carving and Marking Note” is still obligatory for ships that are fully registered on Part 1 of the UK register. It is simply professional confirmation that he ship is marked correctly with name and number. This is a requirement on new registrations, re-registry or if details are changed, e.g ship’s name, So far as I know this requirement still exists; it has not been repealed. I am a UK MCA appointed tonnage measurer and I am still required to produce C&M notes! None of this applies to craft under 24 metres that are “registered” in the UK under Part 3 (formerly SSR) and thus no marking is required, just stickers with the SSR number.

The OP referred to an SI number. I don’t know what this is in our context. Numbers stamped on tanks normally refer to pressure testing, which is relevant to RCD certification in “new” CE marked craft but not old pre-1998 barges. The RCD does incidentally require that the CIN number (Craft Identification Number) is stamped on the vessel, in two places, the stern and a “secret” area, but this is nothing to do with registration, ES -TRIN or anything else

Still confused? I suspect that some authorities and certifying surveyors are!

Balliol.
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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 16 Jul 2020 12:51 #117354

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A good reason for physical cutting in a number is security. Not quite a serious as with more nickable objects such as cars, but still more difficult to remove an engraved number than a sticky label.
My EIN was carved into the aft cabin superstructure, and then filled by the over efficient painter!! Since dug out. Also welded ID below waterline.

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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 16 Jul 2020 10:56 #117347

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Andy Soper wrote: John wrote : Normally a boat subject to ES-TRIN should also have a measurement certificate (Certificate de Jaugage)

I believe this to be a Belgian requirement and not needed elsewhere.

My ES-TRIN survey report (Register Holland) has an action - 'The ENI number (03150121) should be visible from the back, port and starboard side.'
No mention of how this should be achieved.

That is the ENI , not the SI number, which was clearly the start of this conversation, with Richard asking how to do it and Chris giving a great description of how he'd done it.

Pete

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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 16 Jul 2020 10:50 #117346

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The SI number under discussion is certainly the certificate number, as John says. I am aware of no requirement to have it punched in the hull and don't intend to spend time on it, for my neighbour, unless I find it is genuinely required. I'd really like to nail this from a legal PoV. I think it is a just a hangover from the past and not actually required.

Pete

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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 16 Jul 2020 10:47 #117345

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John wrote : Normally a boat subject to ES-TRIN should also have a measurement certificate (Certificate de Jaugage)

I believe this to be a Belgian requirement and not needed elsewhere.

My ES-TRIN survey report (Register Holland) has an action - 'The ENI number (03150121) should be visible from the back, port and starboard side.'
No mention of how this should be achieved.

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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 16 Jul 2020 10:03 #117342

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Sorry John, I misread that.

I am simply trying to find out what law, if any, requires the SI number to be punched in. I have not been asked to do it in two certificate inspections, yet my neighbour has been told to by the same ES-TRIN surveyor that I use.

Pete
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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 16 Jul 2020 10:02 #117341

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What some people are referring to as the SI number is evidently the number on the front of the ES_TRIN (Community) certificate, which I mentioned as the ES-TRIN number. Normally a boat subject to ES-TRIN should also have a measurement certificate (Certificate de Jaugage). The meetbrief was the 'logbook' which stayed with the boat and had all it's previous names and owners in it. They took mine away at the first ES-TRIN examination unfortunately.

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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 16 Jul 2020 08:15 #117338

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Please read what I wrote again Peter. I said the ENI/SSR numbers were on boards, only the ES-TRIN and measurement number punched in the hull. I also have the 1924 number carved under the stairs down to the back cabin, and the 1948 number (when the side decks were raised) engraved into the back cabin. Belgium may well be different from NL. On page 2 box 3 (mentioned by Andy), my certificate has the ENI number.

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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 15 Jul 2020 22:18 #117337

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That's the first mention I've heard of an ENI punched into the hull rather than painted or stuck on. Belgium is a little odd for these things. My NL Kadaster registration and (UK) address are in the certificate, of course. The Kadaster registration number is chiselled into the wheelhouse stern and a 'GN9999' number in the hull.

I've never found out what a 'Measurement Number' or a 'Meetbrief' is after ten years curiosity!

Anyway, my question is really about the SI number that a few people have talked about carving/punching into the hull - particulary my neighbour, before I get my drill out.

Pete

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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 15 Jul 2020 20:11 #117335

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I have the SSR and ENI numbers on boards. When I had my first TRIWV (as was) inspection done in Belgium, they punched in the TRIWV/ES-TRIN (communautaire) certificate number and also the measurement (certificate de jaugage) number onto the hull. SSR and UK address are mentioned in the certificate.

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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 15 Jul 2020 14:52 #117333

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It is probably historic national legislation - the UK version was - www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/3138/schedule/3/made - Carving and marking - but repealed in 1998.

My 1966 version Meetbrief issued in 1980 contains specific instructions as to where the numbers should be inscribed on the hull and superstructure.

Anyone know if it still in NL law?

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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 15 Jul 2020 09:13 #117323

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Andy Soper wrote: In an attempt to clear up any confusion the number that should be displayed on the hull is the 10 digit unique ship identification number (ENI or EIN) eg 031501121. It only has to be displayed not necessarily engraved - sticky numbers, beautiful sign-writing or a cast brass plate are all acceptable. The SI number eg SI 16839 NL is the number of the Certificate (on front page) and it is linked to the ship by the the ship identification number (page 2 box 3)

National registration numbers may have more stringent requirements for displaying.


This thread explained good methods of doing the cutting but nobody explained why it should be done. Can anyone explain? A neighbour in Belgium has been asked byy a Dutch surveryor to do it - but why?! Where is it required?

Pete

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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 29 Apr 2020 13:47 #115614

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And to remove the confusion added by my last post - the ENI / EIN is an EIGHT digit number eg 03150121!

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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 29 Apr 2020 11:59 #115608

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In an attempt to clear up any confusion the number that should be displayed on the hull is the 10 digit unique ship identification number (ENI or EIN) eg 031501121. It only has to be displayed not necessarily engraved - sticky numbers, beautiful sign-writing or a cast brass plate are all acceptable. The SI number eg SI 16839 NL is the number of the Certificate (on front page) and it is linked to the ship by the the ship identification number (page 2 box 3)

National registration numbers may have more stringent requirements for displaying.
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Andy Soper
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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 26 Mar 2020 22:27 #114925

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Hi Richard
if you get a rounded end cold chisel aprox 4mm the ones used for cutting oil groves in white bearings or make one out of a small cold chisel this is what i did for my tool box it will work very well just mark out and go slow i would have taken a photo of it but am in lock down at the momment and cannot get to my tools so hav provided a sketch
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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 26 Mar 2020 21:22 #114924

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Thanks to Balliol, Chris and Tam - and I now have a plan of action.

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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 26 Mar 2020 17:51 #114917

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Balliol Fowden wrote: In days of old a good hard sharp cold chisel was used.


Which is what I used on the back of the wheelbox for Friesland. I spread it over 2 or three days to give my hands (and ears) a break. I've done a lot of signwriting and simply marked them out in chlak, but Chris's template idea could be used to transfer the numbers before cutting them in.

Tam
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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 26 Mar 2020 17:22 #114916

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Richard

I did it using a template made from paper. Download the font 'dotline' (free for personal use at www.fontspace.com/dotline-font-f6023 ) then using Word or a graphics package, size letters correctly and create a template . Print it out on A4, tape in position and use a centre punch to pop through the centre of each dot. To get a clearer number, I opened up the punched centres carefully by drilling each one using about 4mm HSS drill bit as a counter sink until the dots almost merge. Careful it doesn't slip and break into the next dot while drilling.

See attached template example.

Richard N Pentreath wrote: There must be owners out there who have needed to cut in a new SI Number on the top surface of a fuel tank in 5 cm high digits. If so, how did you set about doing this? The only technique I can think of is to find a vibro engraving tool somewhere. But there is already an older, smaller number on the other tank that definitely wasn't done by that method, but still looks far too big for a punch set.

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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 26 Mar 2020 16:15 #114915

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In days of old a good hard sharp cold chisel was used.

The Belgian authorities cut our new numbers in with a large centre pop, just lines of dots.

In the UK we used to identify our boats with welded lettering.

Balliol.
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Cutting in an SI Number for ES-TRIN 26 Mar 2020 16:10 #114914

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There must be owners out there who have needed to cut in a new SI Number on the top surface of a fuel tank in 5 cm high digits. If so, how did you set about doing this? The only technique I can think of is to find a vibro engraving tool somewhere. But there is already an older, smaller number on the other tank that definitely wasn't done by that method, but still looks far too big for a punch set.

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