Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
If you don't like what you see click the Report button or...
Read More...
BARGES: All about barges and barging - building, buying, maintaining, equipment, handling on the water, etc.
  • Page:
  • 1

TOPIC: Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 03 Jun 2020 23:12 #116414

  • Balliol Fowden
  • Balliol Fowden's Avatar
  • Online
  • Posts: 2564
Yes Harold, sounds like a zig-zag keel cooling pipe enclosed in a flooded free flowing box fabricated within the hull. A crude box cooler in other words. The engine coolant circuit is within the pipe, and is cooled because the pipe is in contact with the water outside the pipe.

The box cooler that I provided a link to is also a five sided box. It is fitted in a rectangular hole in the ship’s shell. Guard bars are usually fitted to prevent solid debris entering. The effect is exactly the same as what you described, but instead of a single zig-zag cooling pipe there is a bank (or “stack”) of smaller cupro-nickel tubes , perhaps 50 in parallel. More efficient than a single tube since no bends to impede fluid flow, lesser fluid volume etc.

The other advantages of a box cooler may be that the pipes are all protected within the hull envelope, and there may be less drag than for external pipes. The downsides would include the risk that the box might become full of sediments, or mussels etc. in some waters if antifoul is not used.

Balliol.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 03 Jun 2020 22:32 #116412

  • Justyn Lane
  • Justyn Lane's Avatar Topic Author
  • Online
  • Posts: 14
PM sent

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 03 Jun 2020 21:54 #116410

  • Harold Flescher
  • Harold Flescher's Avatar
  • Online
  • Posts: 180
Balliol,
Since you are a man with lots of experience, I wonder if you can help me think about this. I remember seeing, at least in the USA a long while ago, an installation that had a long 5 sided tank (one long/wide side missing) welded to the bottom of a boat with many holes in the skin of the boat inside the tank. Running through the tank in a zig-zag pattern to maximize the length of pipe in the tank was a steel pipe welded fore and aft inside the tank with external fittings for connections to the engine water pipe. So the engine coolant entered the tank at the rear and exited at the front right back to the engine. So the coolant cooled with outside water. Did I see that right?

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 03 Jun 2020 20:28 #116404

I know that some of the narrowboat fraterntity having problems of keel cooling tanks that turn out not to be quite big enough have successfully had extra skin tank s welded onto the outside of the swim perhaps not so simple on a curved hull but worth investigating? much less likely to be damaged than pipes etc on the outside. A search throught the Waterways World archives should throw up more information.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Justyn Lane

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 03 Jun 2020 17:31 #116398

  • Balliol Fowden
  • Balliol Fowden's Avatar
  • Online
  • Posts: 2564
Justyn,

There are various wrinkles, pro's & con's, debatables etc. to the isssues that have been discussed on this thread. I see your barge was/is? at Red Hill. If still in that sort of locality I am happy to call in sometime and take a look. I'm about 40 miles away. Send me a private email with your contact details if you wish.

Balliol.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Justyn Lane

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 03 Jun 2020 10:29 #116383

  • Justyn Lane
  • Justyn Lane's Avatar Topic Author
  • Online
  • Posts: 14
Morning,

Thank you all for your input,
Balliol I think has summed it up best, I was always concerned about the skin tank being on the base plate, as heat always rises, so the cooling effect wont ever be as efficient as one mounted vertically or even on the chine on the side of the hull.
I have attached the 2 best images I have of the hull shape, which due to fuel tanks and the strengthening ribs inside made a skin tank on the sides of the hull almost impossible. I don’t have images of the inside of the engine room with me as I am away from home at the moment, but can upload some at the weekend when home.

The issue did only occur last year with the exceptionally warm weather, prior to that she had been fine, even being pushed harder, but in much colder temps,, so all that really changed was ambient air and water temps, which was clearly enough for a marginal cooling system to be just not quite be adequate anymore.
I did measure the temps on the inlet and outlet of the tank at the time and they were not as different as I would have expected, outlet from engine was at about 88C (which is approx Thermostat opening temp) and the pipe returning from the keel cooling base tank was about 50C, you certainly couldn’t hold the pipe! I have asked about the internal profiles, but no one can really remember what was put inside!!

I fear also that the comment Balliol makes about even with a circulating pump the cooling issue may not be fully resolved regardless (due to the positioning of the cooling tank) was what took me away from that direction of thinking in the first place and towards HE cooling, as mentioned below in response to Paul, that I would install an HE system for large rivers and sea when extra power would be needed, but try using some clever plumbing, keep the keel cooling for canals, which was/is adequate when pottering in cool waters, but clearly has its limits when temperatures rise.

As mentioned, she is being lifted out anyway next week.so I have this morning contacted Blokland to see what pricing and lead times look like, and also how much of a job it is to fit, looking at the brochure I am unable to see how the unit can be serviced with the vessel still in the water, with building a sea coast around it and with the hull shape, should it have to be mounted on the bottom, how the required thermosiphon pipe could be worked out... although, like everything, there is always a solution somewhere!!
Attachments:

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 03 Jun 2020 01:40 #116379

Admarineservices.com have a deal of info on Betta installations. Some pictures describe Balliol's recommendations.
We use a Blockland (with two circuits catering for the propulsion and generator engine cooling) with no issues.
It sounds like the air bleeding you have is working however still worth checking there are no air locks.
If the heat exchanger is too small the engine cooks, if it is too big the thermostat keeps the engine at the correct temp.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Justyn Lane

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 03 Jun 2020 00:08 #116378

It would appear that with holes being cut, a dry docking will be required.
And I don't know your hull shape, but my first thought would be to install approx 2"/50mm diameter U shape cooling pipes on each side of the skeg, either completely replacing the current skin tank or in parallel. A good length of "U" fore/aft on each skeg should do.
Very common on barges, so is a well proven system.
Keel cooling is very simple and just about completely maintenance free.
My engine is a HE unit, and the raw water pump just circulates round the keel cooler.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Justyn Lane

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Colin Stone
Barge Register KEI
www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk
DBA - The Barge Association
DBA - De Binnenvaartvereniging
DBA - L’Association des Péniches de Plaisance

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 02 Jun 2020 23:47 #116377

Justyn

For clarification,

Can you confirm that you only have one pump circulating a single system. With the same coolant in the engine and keel tank please.

If this is the case can you use a infrared thermometer to measure the flow and return temperature from the keel tank.

Secondly, if the above is the case, is the pump the engine belt driven pump, normally found Infront of No. 1 cylinder?.

If this is the case, Balliol makes a good point that being a centrifugal vane pump or more correctly a "circulator", which I'm sure you know can stall.

It could be that installing a positive displacement pump in the system (preferably engine driven, so as to increase and decrease the flow rate in line with engine revs), preferably on the "cold" supply side.
The plumbing would have to be thought about with the inclusion of a pressure relief valve to bypass in the case of excess coolant supply, e.g. when the thermostat is closed.

Is the exhaust manifold not cooled at all?

As Balliol says some photos would help, also agree on the efficiency of Bockland coolers.

Would Richard's suggestion work, maybe with a small HE in series, raw water cooled (electric pump). The chances of needing it's help in weed conditions is unlikely, only when pushing up rivers, and at sea, where weed is not a problem.

Paul Hayes
The following user(s) said Thank You: Justyn Lane

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 02 Jun 2020 23:03 #116376

Of the problem has only occurred recently and the motor has been usually fine I wonder if its worth just adding a bit of extra cooling capacity? I realise this will sound like a bit of a bodge but if you have room for a car radiator, electric fan and sender somewhere in the circuit and ducting to a grille cut into the wheelhouse side that would be an awful lot cheaper than most of the other alternatives
The following user(s) said Thank You: Justyn Lane

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 02 Jun 2020 22:09 #116375

  • Balliol Fowden
  • Balliol Fowden's Avatar
  • Online
  • Posts: 2564
..... And here is the link to the Blokland cooler that I would consider :

www.bloklandnonferro.nl/en/products/cooling/bottomtype-coolers/

Balliol.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Justyn Lane

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 02 Jun 2020 22:05 #116374

  • Balliol Fowden
  • Balliol Fowden's Avatar
  • Online
  • Posts: 2564
If the cooling tank is a relatively shallow, horizontal tank then that could well be your problem. In a normal cooling tank, built into the near vertical side of a boat, there is a very clear temperature gradient down the height of the tank, hot at the top where the water from the engine should go in, cooler at the bottom where the water should be drawn out, back to the engine, such that you can feel the difference with your fingers. The cooled water drops quite clearly to the bottom of the tank, and only fully cooled water (subject to the thermal transfer capacity of the tank) can be returned to the engine. In a shallow horizontal tank the temperature gradient is less clear, but the hottest water will be at the top of the tank, not on the bottom, which will be the prime or only cooling surface, and this will reduce the temperature differential over the cooling surface and thus the overall efficiency of the tank. The outlet pipe, back to the engine, may not be drawing fully cooled water, unless perhaps there is a sealed route via a maze of baffles through the tank, creating in effect a pipe, which would not be “easy” to construct (thus unlikely to exist if “ease” was the watchword) and might be constricting the flow, perhaps through too many 180 degree returns.

If constricted circulation is the problem then perhaps the best way to boost it would be to fit a normal belt driven raw water impeller pump (Jabsco or Johnson), plumbed into the circuit, perhaps on the return line to minimise operating temperature. I would not recommend any form of electric pump, manually or thermostatically switched : too many potential unreliabilities! However, if the cooling tank is not working at full efficiency then to an extent I reason that a faster fluid flow may not fully address the issue. You would need a bigger tank.

You would be able to measure the temperature drop across the tank, from inlet to outlet. I’m not going to get into figures off the top of my head but basically the flow from the engine will be at or close to thermostat temperature and the return to the engine should be no more than “warm.” Beta or Kubota might be able to suggest a figure.

Personally I would always be suspicious of a horizontal tank.

Paul has reminded us that France is getting weedier, so I would come back again to a Blokland bottom cooler, which will retain the advantages of a closed circuit system. I will send a link separately.

Balliol.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Justyn Lane

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 02 Jun 2020 21:28 #116373

  • Justyn Lane
  • Justyn Lane's Avatar Topic Author
  • Online
  • Posts: 14
Again, Thank you for the swift thoughts and response!

Hadn’t thought of the power station possibilities, but like you say many of them have gone... I was upstream of Hazelford Lock so the lowest would have been the power station in Nottingham I think...

As she is fairly new in the water, she hasn’t been over painted, she has Coppercoat anti-fouling from new to try and keep her as clean as possible (which aside from the little patches where she was scratched on the port side on the Soar) has keep her fantastically clean underneath.
The builders did put the keel tank on the keel, as she is chined they couldn’t find an easy solution other than the base plate, and you comments on the cooling “fan” in the water pump are extremely helpful, as one of the hoses doesn’t run as smoothly as it could to the rear of the engine. So that is something to look at, the keel tank on the keel also meets with your point on thermodynamics, it could well be struggling to push the water down to the keel tank, it obviously has an external water temperature that it is “happy” up until, but whether that is 16C or only 10C I have no idea...

The 90T, being a fairly new model and turbo charged, doesn’t have a very “available” heat exchanger manifold, as the HE engine has a different Turbo from the Keel cooled engine, so as well as changing the manifold on the engine I would also have to change the Turbo and entire exhaust... hence the original suggestion from Beta about selling the Keel cooled engine and buying another... with the spares prices they quoted me, it would definitely be the cheaper route to swap the engine, hence my suggestion of a remote HE!!

I will have a look at the Blokland type set up, but thank you for the pointers on where to position the inlets.

Food for thought for me, so thank you. Any pointers on possible coolant circulation pumps (24V) that folks know are robust and reliable may be helpful as well!!

Many thanks

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 02 Jun 2020 21:07 #116371

  • Justyn Lane
  • Justyn Lane's Avatar Topic Author
  • Online
  • Posts: 14
Thanks again, this was something I was already aware of and have 24V SPX Johnson bilge fans moving air in the engine room, one is directly over the exhaust with the ducting taking as much away as quick as possible... I have an engine room temp gauge which did on the day ion question reach 34C when the engine started overheating... but not sure which came first!

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 02 Jun 2020 21:04 #116370

  • Justyn Lane
  • Justyn Lane's Avatar Topic Author
  • Online
  • Posts: 14
Many thanks Mike,

We’ve never had an issue losing any coolant, so don’t think that is the issue, it is all good information though!

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 02 Jun 2020 20:59 #116369

  • Justyn Lane
  • Justyn Lane's Avatar Topic Author
  • Online
  • Posts: 14
Hi Paul,

Many thanks for the reply!

I’ll see if I can comment below...Hopefully in blue!

I would like to probably throw a couple of thoughts in.

1. I have a simmer H.P. engine, NA. My barge was built by the same builder I think.

2. French water temperature can and does get up to 30c in the summer. This is what I had heard, so obviously would become more of an issue anything warmer than 16C

3. The vast majority of the time in France you wouldn't be using even ½ the installed H.P. Yes, as with most of the time on the UK waterways is the same, the issue that concerns me (see a previous post about cruising the East coast, is Knowing I have the power with no issues when I need it for as long as I need it

4. What you WILL find out if you come this way is that due to many things weed is growing in the canals and smaller rivers at a phenomenal rate.Again I had heard this

5. Barges here are going for HE cooling to Keep Cooling because of the weed.There is some more detail I had left out to try and keep it as short as I could, but still give detail, I aim to put 2 full bore 2” L or T port valves in the engine circuit to keep the keel cooling for when it is really weedy, it’s there so I may as well use it, but like I said, need to know the power is there and can be sustained should it be needed

6. We were cruising with another boat last year, at EVERY lock (20 minutes) he was cleaning out his raw water strainers.

7. My advice would be to
A. Increase keel cooling capacity,
This could be done easily when out of the water, using a external pipe in series with the cooling tanks, running along (part of) the keel) this may require some physical protection. This method extensively used on the continent. I have looked at this but as with everything, it creates it’s own issues, like you say requires protection and my concern would be keeping it clean and therefore efficient

B. Is it the case that the keel tanks are ok in size (have you measured temperature in and out?).Like I said they are basically exactly the size for a 90NA motor as per Betamarine sizing guidelines, no extra capacity at all

C. If C above is ok, is a) the engine water pump (is it a common, keel water and engine water system) or keel water circulation pump (some systems have two closed cuircuts) moving enough water. This could be an issue, unfortunately how the boat is built access is extremely limited shall be say, I had a thought that the baffle in the keel tank may not be functioning properly (if clearances were to great during construction) but would welcome any recommendations as to what could be used as a pump that would cope with the temperatures and load of circulating coolant
b. Is it so simple as thermostat sizing?.Have checked this and is fine

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 02 Jun 2020 20:52 #116368

  • Balliol Fowden
  • Balliol Fowden's Avatar
  • Online
  • Posts: 2564
Going back some years (well decades actually!) there were often cases if boats inexplicably overheating on the Trent whilst being fine elsewhere. Indeed it happened to me on my last narrowboat when towing an old butty back from Newark. The explanation then was that the Trent tended to be a few degrees warmer than most UK waterways because of the number of power stations, which was plausible, but perhaps not the case nowadays when a number of those have closed down. In our case, in the 1970's, we put it down to a bit of that, and also too many layers of high build blacking on the hull (as one does when you own your own slipway). A thick layer of paint can indeed cut down the thermal transfer capacity of a skin tank. We stripped back the paint on the outside of the cooling tank and never had another problem, although I don't think we ever towed a butty up the Trent in flood again with that boat.

I am no expert on Beta engines but do recall that there were problems with some of their earlier marinisations of smaller engines because the header tank ports were poorly designed, resulting in air locks in the system. I have no idea whether that is at all germaine with the 90T range.

Noting however your intention to use the boat on salt water, and in line with my latest thinking for inland waters, I would suggest you did a bit more investigation before changing to raw water cooling, since there are disadvantages, some of which you have already thought about such as blockages. I speak as one who converted my ship from closed circuit to raw water some years ago and who is now thinking of changing it back!

1. The cooling tank, by rule of thumb calculation, should have an externally wetted area of at least ca. 23 square feet (1 square foot per four horse power). As hinted the outer surface should not be covered in too much paint!

2. Check very carefully that both the flow and return hoses from the engine to the skin tank rise smoothly to the engine throughout so that no air locks can develop anywhere. The skin tank should be able to auto vent into the header tank and thus out through the pressure cap.

3. Check that the cooling circuit is as free flowing as possible, with no tight bends, no kinks, no constrictions, no loops where air can collect and impede flow.

4. Verify with your builder the design of the cooling tank. This is a debatable matter. Some sources suggest longitudinal or vertical baffles. Some suggest no baffles (including me). Some suggest that the hot flow from the engine should go in at the bottom, some suggest at the top (including me). Remember that a centrifugal circulating "pump" is really only a fan, designed to circulate water through a radiator (in an industrial situation) mounted level with the engine. Hot in at the top, cold out at the bottom. I have seen extreme cases where centrifugal circulator has been asked to push hot water down vertically from the engine to a bottom tank, and the pump has simply not been able to overcome the thermal rise of the hot water and push it down. Admittedly that was a problem that manifested only at tick-over, but my point is that you cannot expect too much power from a centifugal fan and if the cooling system is constricted, or fighting the laws of thermodynamics, then the flow might be impeded.

5. Consider fitting a Blokland type box cooler. Google Blokland Non-Ferro BV. They will advise on size (give them the Kubota model number). You would need the sea wtaer resistant tubes.

If you decide to change to raw water then :

I suspect you have the 90T Greenline model. I am surprised that Beta cannot supply the correct heat exchanger manifold. Either the base engine cylinder heads are different or it might be something much more simple, such as that they cannot supply an exhaust adaptor to suit your intention of retaining the dry exhaust so the computer says no. If I am right then It should be easy enough to make up an adaptor to connect a dry exhaust system, but then if you are going raw for the engine (and accepting the disadvantages) then why not a wet exhaust ? It will make the engine room run cooler.

If raw it is, then fit two x 1.5" BSP inlets, ideally right aft near the propeller, on the shaft line, clear of the mud and in the prop water flow. You can always bush down in size if your system wants say 1" hoses. Fit large diameter external grids to act as strainers and reduce inlet velocity.

As always photos would help any further remote diagnosis, and also detailed drawings of both sides of the present engine.

Balliol.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Justyn Lane

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 02 Jun 2020 20:47 #116367

Hi Justyn

I forget the engine space temperature, forced ventilation would help, many boats here have it in some form or other. Just a supply ducted 12 inch desk fan can make a big difference.

It's been 30C shade today and before the summer is out we will probably see 40C or close to it.

Or even a stand alone chiller (domestic are cheap) to cool the air.

We found that our dry exhaust when running hard caused temperature problems in the aft cabin.

Simple solution, an electric raw water pump, piped to a simple home made injector nozzle adds cooling water to the exhaust when needed, controlled by a pipe thermostat on the exhaust pipe.

Paul Hayes
The following user(s) said Thank You: Justyn Lane

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 02 Jun 2020 20:44 #116366

I sympathise, having had to work through keel cooling issues but, to be clear, I don't have answers.

For what it's worth, we had real issues with coolant loss from our Beta 65, cruising in high summer in France. Even when scrupulously following the levels in the cooling system, we were losing vast amounts into the bilges every day and we only cruise at 1200rpm max.

After years of fiddling with this, the splendid Herby Pariftt, son of Joe from Migennes, said to me as I groaned when he met me a lock, "You'll never cure this. Your keel tanks are far too small. Stop overfilling the system, provide more overflow capacity" which we did and it's been fine ever since.

What I would agree with is Paul Hayes's point about weed in France. We were with another boat last summer and their progress was stop start because of it.

Good luck!

Mike Gibbons
"Decize"
The following user(s) said Thank You: Justyn Lane

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 02 Jun 2020 20:30 #116365

Hello Justin.

Wow.

On first and only read I am sorry to say I don't have a quick answer, though do understand your reasoning which seems to stand up on a gut feeling.

I would like to probably throw a couple of thoughts in.

1. I have a simmer H.P. engine, NA. My barge was built by the same builder I think.

2. French water temperature can and does get up to 30c in the summer.

3. The vast majority of the time in France you wouldn't be using even ½ the installed H.P.

4. What you WILL find out if you come this way is that due to many things weed is growing in the canals and smaller rivers at a phenomenal rate.

5. Barges here are going for HE cooling to Keep Cooling because of the weed.

6. We were cruising with another boat last year, at EVERY lock (20 minutes) he was cleaning out his raw water strainers.

7. My advice would be to
A. Increase keel cooling capacity,
This could be done easily when out of the water, using a external pipe in series with the cooling tanks, running along (part of) the keel) this may require some physical protection. This method extensively used on the continent.

B. Is it the case that the keel tanks are ok in size (have you measured temperature in and out?).

C. If C above is ok, is a) the engine water pump (is it a common, keel water and engine water system) or keel water circulation pump (some systems have two closed cuircuts) moving enough water.
b. Is it so simple as thermostat sizing?.

I dare say you might have thought of the above apart from 4,5 & 6

Good luck
Paul Hayes
The following user(s) said Thank You: Justyn Lane

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Keel cooling to HE cooling conversion. Customer Service and BetaMarine 02 Jun 2020 19:37 #116364

  • Justyn Lane
  • Justyn Lane's Avatar Topic Author
  • Online
  • Posts: 14
Good Evening to the Forum,

I realise the title may already be somewhat ironic, so please excuse any sarcasm as I am really struggling to get any sort of customer service at all from BetaMarine.... from my experience they are certainly a "sell and forget" kind of business. I would say whilst they seem to sell a quality product, but just know you will will get, from y experience, sweet FA in support once you've spent the money!! I would NOT recommend them at all!
As a result of how useless they are I was looking for a little input to see if anyone could offer some tips for my fraying patience.. It's long as I wanted to provide as much detail as possible....

Our barge has a Beta 90T engine, based on the V3600 Kubota engine, good solid base, but not really ideal as has a Turbo on the side but at the date of build sticking with a Naturally Aspirated Engine was going to be an issue with the RCD, so a 90T it was.
Keel cooling was chosen to avoid weed issues etc etc and the builder followed all Betamarine "guidance" on Keel cooling sizing etc, it is almost exactly the size as recommended, which interestingly on the BM website makes no distinction between Turbo and NA for sizing of the keel cooling tank.
Interestingly in dealing with engine room ventilation to deal with the radiated heat,, BM do advise that a Turbo engine requires more ventilation than a NA engine to remove radiated heat (and from what I know of Turbo engines they do run hotter than a NA when working hard due to the extra oomph generated (not really ever seen melted piston crowns on a NA engine) so really would have expected the keel cooling to be a tad larger for the Turbo engine?
The engine passed commissioning tests and was absolutely fine until last summer. When, in August 2019, pushing upriver on the Trent during that rare warm patch we had... at 2200rpm she overheated, back off below 2200rpm and she would cool again, push again and straight back over temperature. A little annoying to say the least, but I have now been through the entire system, checked all the obvious possibilities, and done a whole load of digging for information.
Fortunately I recorded the water temperature when the event happened, 16C, not really that warm, considering we had the barge built for European cruising, where I am pretty sure, especially in the south that temperature would not be to uncommon? I discovered that the commissioning tests were done at a water temp of 3C, so obviously flat out tied to a dock was fine!!

This is where my issue with Betamarine starts, the boat builder has been as helpful as possible, but relied entirely on advice from Beta as the 90T was fairly new to the market to meet new emissions requirements, so they could only build what was recommended, yes, they could have oversized the keel tank, but obviously there would have been a cost etc and long story short, it didn't happen, so I went to visit BM at the Southampton Boat show last year and it's been downhill from there.

Having spoken to them at the show and managed to meet and give a full explanation to the Technical Manager (Adrian Tomkies), asking about converting the existing 90T engine from Keel Cooled to Heat Exchanger cooled, which apparently "should not be a problem"....a follow up email after the show received the reply that actually my only option would be to sell the 90T as a used lump (with only about 120 hours on the clock) and buy a new Heat Exchanger cooled engine from them... a rather expensive proposition..
After now months of trying to extract blood from a stone trying to get an answer of an alternate solution to keep my exisiting engine and do a cost effective conversion using (which ended up having to be my suggestion) a remote heat exchanger and keeping a dry exhaust system, I am actually still no further forward on some fairly basic questions which included:
1. What size inlet and outlet sea cocks would be required.
2. What size Heat Exchanger is required
3. Would an oil cooler and/or charge cooler be required (I asked about a charge cooler as maybe worth a few hp in warmer climates)
4. Can you please list all parts required for the sea water pump, including any gaskets etc needed

The reply below from Adrian Tomkies was as brief as any I think I've had...

Please see attached guide on fitting a Bowman Heat Exchanger

1 x Seawater pump gear kit
600-01372 V3600 POWER TAKE-OFF 11 TOOTH SPLINE KIT 450 1G551-83814 £162.50
1 x Seawater pump
207-01178/01 SEAWATER PUMP PF120B BV3600 / 3800 PROPULSION. £352

DPD £10.80

Plus vat

From Bowman
1 x Bowman remote HE as attached GL240-3878-4
As attached scan

No need for water cooler
No need for oil cooler

Sorry for the delay


Turns out I did need gaskets, managed to extract extra details from the parts guy... then I went to EJ Bowman as suggested to try and buy the heat exchanger.... and it all fell over again.
The Technical sales guy John at Bowman listened to where I had got to, I shared the mail with him, and the next sentence he said was "we have a working relationship with Beta, but I have no idea why they would have specified a exchanger that big, a GL240 is for a 400+hp motor and you said you've got a how many?" I replied 90....
His reply "Well in my experience an exchanger that's oversize can cause as many issues as an undersized one, so let me check with them" (and despite chasing haven't heard from him since, nor BM so have given up...

If you've read this far I congratulate you and the question I have is, as the barge is coming out of the water (much delayed) on June 8th and I still haven't got an answer out of the "long line of unprintable expletives about how useless BM are, having even copied the Chairman and CEO on mails to try and get an answer....." aaaaaarrrrrggggggghhhhhhhh :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

Can anyone help me with advice or a calculation/ formula I can use to work out the size heat exchanger I should use that will mean I can use the engine balls to the wall continuously should I need to and not worry to much about anything other than the fuel bill?

I believe a GL140-3167-2 (suitable for a 240hp motor) would be about as close as I can get from Bowman, as I need to keep the inlet and outlet for the motor with a 40mm hose (which seems to be the standard size on the water pump) so a 2" BSP brass fitting would allow that.

As for the raw water inlet, I am working on the theory that as the raw water pump I have managed to purchase from BM has a ID at the ports of 32mm and fits a 38mm ID hose, I will use 2 separate 38mm (1 1/2") seacocks to each feed separate Vetus 330/38 Strainers with each strainer outlet to a separate 1 1/2" (38mm) ball valve, this is to enable each circuit to be shut down individually for cleaning while the engine is still running, but if both are open and supplying I m hoping it will reduce the velocity of the water intake thereby reducing the amount of debris ingested, the ball valve outlets are then combined at a 38mm "Y" Piece to feed a single hose to the sea water pump, this then feeds the heat exchanger through a 38mm hose and a 1 1/2" BSP (38mm) fitting before going to the outlet just below the waterline through another 38mm seacock.

I would really appreciate if anyone who understands my rambling can let me have their thoughts on whether I'm in vaguely the right direction or I'm on another planet??

Much appreciated!!

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Page:
  • 1
Moderators: Pete Milne
Time to create page: 0.307 seconds