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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 28 Dec 2022 16:33 #133355

  • Tim Cahill-O'Brien
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Ok so I just heard back from Agentschap. The eidas system does not work for many eu countries. You cannot pay without the invoice number and you can't log in to see the invoice without a dutch Digid.

However it seems that non Dutch eu citizens can now register in the Non Resident Person's Database or RNI at the local municipality and then get a BSN and Digid. They can then do everything that a Dutch national can do. You go online and make an appointment and visit something called a RNI locket at the local office and they set you up.
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 28 Dec 2022 11:20 #133352

  • Tim Cahill-O'Brien
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Agentschap referred the issue to their EIDAS department.   To be honest it is unclear how this will really help as there is no reference to my Maltese ID number in my Dutch VHF registration so I do not know how logging in with my Maltese ID would be able to locate my Dutch VHF registration.  Before I was able to login with my 'Relatienummer' which was issued by Agentschap for this purpose and was the common key that would replace the DIGD that that Dutch residents use.

In the meantime they told me the renewal fees are due in February and this would be under the new name of ‘Rijksinspectie Digitale Infrastructuur’ (Dutch Authority for Digital Infrastructure) which is replacing ‘Agentschap Telecom’ (Radiocommunications Agency Netherlands) on January 1.  I would assume that this will mean a new IBAN account number to pay the bill.

I am going to try to pay the 2023 fees this week before they switch over.  As far as I have been able to determine, the renewal fee is 49 Euro or 66 if you pay manually.  I am going to send the 66 Euro to the old IBAN with my Relatienummer on the payment and follow this up with a manual email to see if they can find the payment and credit it correctly.

In the meantime we should probably remove the how to on the DBA site  Knowledgebase..Communications..VHF Radio..Getting a Dutch Ships VHF license as Steps  1-4 are no longer possible.

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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 27 Dec 2022 18:20 #133351

  • Tim Cahill-O'Brien
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Hello,

An update on my progress with trying to get EIDAS working with Agentschap telecom.

I acquired a smartcard reader and was able to get the Cardreader from my EU country's EIDAS node, Malta downloaded and configured.  I have an Authentication PIN which was sent to my a few years ago when I got my residency card.  I was able to get the Card reader and EIDAS software installed and configured correctly.

The Maltese implementation of EIDAS like many EU countries requires a Card Reader, ID Card and PIN.  Some countries like Belgium allow you to use just a UserID and Password.  Others like Luxembourg have a CardReader but also a smartphone App option.

Anyway I was able to get it working and am able to login to the 'EU Login' dashboard successfully using my ID card and PIN.

However when I try this from the Agentschap Telecom My Agency Telecom page, it sends me to the MAltese node where I successfully login and then it returns me back to the Dutch eidas.minez.nl site which generates an Invalid SAML Token error.  So it would seem that the certificates on either the Maltese site or the Dutch site are not set up correctly.

I have sent an email to the Agentschap telecom support with a description of the error.  I will let you know if I hear anything.

Tim  

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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 17 Dec 2022 16:54 #133298

  • Tim Cahill-O'Brien
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Thanks Pete you have helped me by trying the EIDAS using your Belgian ID.  That worked so we know that the new Agentschap system is working.  There were stories in the Dutch media last year about hacking risks to Agentschap Telecom so it makes sense that they want to get out of the user credentials business.

Now we know that the EIDAS integration at Agentschap is working I need to get my own Maltese node of the system working.  I have ordered a card reader which I should have after Christmas.  Once I get it configured and working I am confident that I will be able to login in again.  I am a software developer by training so this should be doable.

I was also able to discover from some of the european developer boards that people who are not resident in a covered country but who need access to EIDAS are able to get an Estonian eresidency ID which comes with an Estonian ID and use that to access EIDAS.  Agentschap have an Estonian integration so there is also a solution to cover residents in France, the UK and the USA.

When I get this figured out I will get the DBA Dutch VHF article updated and also report here.  So far the EIDAS system has been slow to take off but perhaps in the future it will be common and then we will be happy to have done the work to set it up.  

Thanks for your help,

Tim

PS I only referenced the Credit Card similarity as this is another case where things work really well for Dutch Residents but not quite as well for non residents.

 

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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 17 Dec 2022 10:38 #133292

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Not questioning that - the issue is the alternate login method that Agentschap had for those without a DigiD.  There was a special login and password that Agentschap would issue on request.  This has been replaced by the European EIDAS system which has only been implemented in half the countries in the EU.  Tim,
 
Nobody is disputing that.  Have you tried talking to AT to see what they propose for people in your situation?   That might be more productive than just discussing it here.  I have found them very helpful in the past.   This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.  or +31 50-587 74 44 
Pete Milne, Quo Vadis , Gent.
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 23:10 #133290

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Tim, I am at loss to understand the reference and relevance to Netherlands credit card use.
in the past 10 years we have experienced the rapid change from almost no card transactions to almost cashless. We principally use our Rabo debit card however also Visa. As in many countries Amex is not liked due to the high fees.
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 18:07 #133288

  • Tim Cahill-O'Brien
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Not questioning that - the issue is the alternate login method that Agentschap had for those without a DigiD.  There was a special login and password that Agentschap would issue on request.  This has been replaced by the European EIDAS system which has only been implemented in half the countries in the EU.  
The vast majority of agencies across europe have not taken this hardline approach.  

 

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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 17:37 #133285

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Each country chooses how to implement it's EIDAS authentication.  Some countries have just a username and password.  Some require an app on your phone and some require an ID card and Pin with a smartcard reader.


It all seems fairly clear.  But why Agentschap chose to implement this now is a mystery.  

Another question.  Does anyone have a vhf shipstation license in a different country from their ship registration?  


 
Tim  DigiD is used by all government agencies,  cities, banks and other providers where there is an exchange of private/confidential data

on the US registered barge there is a US ships license and a US operators license

 
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 16:41 #133284

  • Tim Cahill-O'Brien
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Each country chooses how to implement it's EIDAS authentication.  Some countries have just a username and password.  Some require an app on your phone and some require an ID card and Pin with a smartcard reader.

The UK was working on using an app called Verify for this but progress on that seems to have halted.

A workaround is to establish an e residency ID in Estonia.  This comes with an ID card that can be used with a card reader to access Agentschap.  The Estonian program is open to anyone in the world, not just Estonian residents.

It all seems fairly clear.  But why Agentschap chose to implement this now is a mystery.  

Another question.  Does anyone have a vhf shipstation license in a different country from their ship registration?  

 

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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 15:46 #133283

  • Pete Milne
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Fortunately I have a Belgian ID, so I just tested logging in to AT using my Belgian ID. The process is much the same as to access Belgian government services.  No extra hardware/software is needed.  It needs a few more steps, for AT to verify you with the 'foreign' system.  I reached my existing records just fine, using the old user/password first time to connect to the old records.

It won't work for 12 EEA /Single-market countries - including France(!) so they'll probably have to set up another route in for those.  I smell a work-in-progress.
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 15:18 #133282

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It should be easier for Eu residents but it isnt.  As I do not have a Dutch DigiD that the residents get, I was able to apply from Agentschap for a special ID and password that I could use for login 
 
Yes, it's changed and gives give preference to Dutch residents.  It is a Dutch agency funded by Dutch taxes after all.
However, they are still servicing barges on the Kadaster, even it the web interface is deficient.  It would be good if you could log on with a Kadaster number. Have you asked them about it?
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 14:35 #133281

  • Tim Cahill-O'Brien
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It should be easier for Eu residents but it isnt.  As I do not have a Dutch DigiD that the residents get, I was able to apply from Agentschap for a special ID and password that I could use for login and that worked great, IThe details are in the DBA FAQ.  You just logged in every now and then and checked if you had a bill for a renewal from Agentschap.  If you did then the invoice number was on the bill and you put that on the SEPA payment when you made your renewal.  However this year I could not log in and so I sent the payment with my customer number on it instead of the invoice number.  Agentschap returned my payment, marked my account as delinquent and referred it to the Dutch Debt collection agency BOSINCASSO who then very aggressively pursued payment with penalties with the boat dealer who serves as my mailing address for the license.  The whole thing was unnecessarily hostile and I dont want to do it again.

So now the process is if you are not a Dutch resident then you select the EIDAS login.  This redirects to your resident EU country's EIDAS site.  You then plug in a smartcard reader to your computer and insert your resident ID card and PIN from your home country.  This generates the security token needed by the new agentschap website and you can log in to your My Agentschap account and see your bill.

The EIADS system has been implemented but has seen very little adoption from EU citizens due to the need to buy special hardware to use it.  It seems to really be for large employers and government bureaus, but even in those places I have never seen anyone with such a card reader.  I will try to purchase a Smartcard reader and see if I can get it to work.  If so I will post the details and get the FAQ updated so others may have a solution.

How this is supposed to work for EU countries like Ireland which doesn't even have an ID card or non EU countries remains to be seen, but at least we can figure it out for EU residents in countries that issue a compatible ID.

Tim

 

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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 11:04 #133280

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They do check for VHF licenses on the Waal and issue fines if you dont have one.  And you will be checked for everything in Belgium.
Not in my years in Belgium, and only once in 4 years in Holland (with 25m)!

If any DBA member can figure out how to access the Dutch VHF license system without a Dutch residency Digid I would love to hear an update.  It seems to be impossible to log onto the website now. 

My experience is that AT will still issue / renew a licence for a barge 'connected' with the Netherlands, e.g. registered there.   However their website is more restricted, to individuals resident in the Single Market, rather than related to the ship. That's simpler for the website logon.  Other people should contact them by phone or email. Details are HERE .   

We should also update the instructions on the DBA FAQ as they no longer work.

Noted.  A link to the specific page would help as it may be mentioned on more than one!
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 10:38 #133279

  • Tim Cahill-O'Brien
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No boating license is needed under 15 meters in the netherlands.  A VHF is definitely useful but not required if you are spending time around Rotterdam and need to talk to Vessel Traffic.  You will probablyonly use it once or twice a year in other places in the Netherlands.  The vast majority of boats do not have a VHF and the Dutch system relies more on mobile phones to communicate with Bridges and locks.  Many bridges now use navigation software to request openings and if you are using the recommended Nautical Map app it automatically send opening requests to the bridges as you approach them.

Boyd, you can get a RYA ICC in the US at some sailing schools in Florida and California.  Just make sure your CEVNI is for Power over 10 meters and not Sail.  US citizens still qualify for an RYA VHF and License from the UK using training from some US Schools.

They do check for VHF licenses on the Waal and issue fines if you dont have one.  And you will be checked for everything in Belgium.

If any DBA member can figure out how to access the Dutch VHF license system without a Dutch residency Digid I would love to hear an update.  It seems to be impossible to log onto the website now.  It seems mad that the move of licenses to Digital administration means a Mail based paper system for the non Dutch.  But given the crazy situation with Dutch Credit card acceptance it would not be unexpected. We should also update the instructions on the DBA FAQ as they no longer work.

 
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 08:28 #133277

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Thanks Pete, I'll be setting my alarm clock for 0500 local time and try to call them. They do list an international phone number, here's hoping they offer service in English!

 
They're Dutch. They speak English.  Good luck.
 
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 07:08 #133276

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Thanks Ian, this is what I thought and why I was a bit shocked by Tim's answer.
I've already got the CEVNI certificate, just need to get my ICC now.
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 06:48 #133275

  • Ian McCauley
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I will say that we come in at 18.6m in length so at this point, in light of what's been said, I'm still uncertain as to wether ot not I'll need my ICC. Maybe we'll cast off and if we're ever caught I will simply plead ignorance; something I've had a lifetime of practice at. 😉
Well, at 18.6 m you definitely do need the ICC, all around Europe, and you might find that Dutch and Belgians are not forgiving of pleas of ignorance. Expect a fine, at least, if caught without a licence. Plus, taking the ICC and getting CEVNI endorsement is not hard to arrange and is very important to navigating the waterways safely.

Cheers
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 05:16 #133274

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Thanks Ian and thanks to all that replied. Ian i will certainly fill in the holes in my profile. And thanks to all for the patience to answer what to many may be ridiculous concerns.
I will say that we come in at 18.6m in length so at this point, in light of what's been said, I'm still uncertain as to wether ot not I'll need my ICC. Maybe we'll cast off and if we're ever caught I will simply plead ignorance; something I've had a lifetime of practice at. 😉
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 03:40 #133273

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All this time I had been going under the assumption that to stay on the right side of the law I needed both.
If you are correct 
If your Flat Bottomed Girl is less than 15 m length, then you won't need the ICC in the Netherlands or Belgium. You will need it in Germany or France. In passing - would you mind updating your Boat Register entry with a few more details Boyd? Thanks for making the initial entry.

I think the regulations around VHF covering your situation are detailed in the KnowledgeBase under Regulations-VHF . For the Netherlands, it states: "Vessels under 20m (small craft) do not require a VHF but there is a VHF on board you must use it and listen to it." The implication is if you have a VHF radio, remove it and put it in a box somewhere.

Tim's advice, particularly about getting used to cruising in your current location looks pretty sound. Just be mindful of the other VHF and Skipper regulations, in other countries, detailed in the KnowledgeBase and plan, at leisure, for your future cruising.

Happy Christmas!
Ian

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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 02:55 #133272

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When we bought our boat in the Netherlands from a Dutch owner, the boat had a VHF Radio but the antenna was disconnected.  When the survey was done the previous owner said the radio worked but was disconnected since nether he nor the boat had a radio license. 

I did end up getting a ships station license and a radio license and didn’t find much use for it in the Netherlands.  My radio operator license is issued by the U.S. Coast guard, I was boarded in Belgium and their concern was as to wether or not I had a license, not the nationality of the license.  Not sure if it is “legal” or relevant, just my experience.

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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 16 Dec 2022 00:56 #133271

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Really Tim???
All this time I had been going under the assumption that to stay on the right side of the law I needed both.
If you are correct (and I don't doubt your know-how) then that makes for a pretty nice Christmas present.
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 15 Dec 2022 23:10 #133270

  • Tim Cahill-O'Brien
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Don't worry about it Boyd.

In the Netherlands you don't need an ICC or any kind of boat license.  You don't need a radio and without that you don't need a radio license.  You can get all that stuff later after you have gotten used to your boat in NL.

Tim 

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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 15 Dec 2022 21:53 #133268

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Thanks Pete, I'll be setting my alarm clock for 0500 local time and try to call them. They do list an international phone number, here's hoping they offer service in English!
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 15 Dec 2022 21:14 #133267

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I have two barges on the Kadaster, which was sufficient connection for Agentschap Telecom to renew my Ships' licences, despite being British with a Belgian address.  As I advised, phone them.

As Tim also found, like me, you can only access AT online with an EU ID.

The Ship's licence does not have to match the registration in any legislation I've found - but each licensing authority will have some limits; thus in the UK Ofcom may only license UK-flagged ships.  This matches my experience with AT and Dutch registration..

The Operator's certificate is nothing to do with the ship, just personal, for use on any ship, anywhere that recognises the certificate.  Most European certificates are recognised in most of Europe.   
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 15 Dec 2022 20:51 #133266

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BTW, I have emailed the Dutch authorities (In English and Dutch) but I'm not holding my breath while I wait for a reply.
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 15 Dec 2022 20:36 #133265

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Tim, thanks for chiming in.
I honestly hate harping on this but we're quickly running out of time to firm up our long-term plans. We're flying to Turkiye right after Christmas to spend a couple of months thawing out before heading to the UK so I can get my ICC training and exam.
I was also contemplating taking the VHF radio course and exam there but I'm uncertain if the training would even be recognized in The Netherlands.
Our plans were to fly to our boat immediately after obtaining the ICC (and radio operator certificate) and casting off for the first time but I'm now questioning if that will even be possible with this whole radio licensing fiasco.
It does sometimes feel this dream of life on the canals has been like a game of whack-a-mole with a series of one hurdle after another placed in our way.
Just to recap...I'm a Canadian citizen, we do have a mail address in The Netherlands although we do not reside there.
Our boat was purchased in The Netherlands and is registered with the Kadaster.
Do we need to have our VHF registered in Holland, could we legally register it elsewhere?...same with my VHF operator's certificate. Would a British certificate be recognized?
Thanks to anyone that may offer definitive information!
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 12 Dec 2022 14:42 #133214

  • Tim Cahill-O'Brien
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My boat dealer also tells me that a new agency called Rijksinspectie Digitale Infrastructuur will handle the ship stations license after Jan 1 2023.  I am hopefull that they will work with non Dutch residents.

Tim
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 12 Dec 2022 14:29 #133213

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I also seem to have lost online access to my AgentsChap account to see and pay my VHF ships license for my Kadaster registered boat. I had a special login and password before but this seems to have been replaced with some kind of partially implemented Pan-EU ID card access. I tried using my Maltese ID card but the system wants me to have a special card reader device to read my non dutch card.

This year due to this I was unable to access my bill in time. As I didnt want my ships license to lapse I did proactively send in my renewal feel but it seems they couldnt associate it with my license without the invoice number and they returned my fee, marked my account as delinquent and referred it to a Dutch Debt collection company who proceeded to harass the boat dealer who serves as my license address. I was eventually able to get this straightened out but the takeaway is that it may soon be impossible to get a dutch radio license even for boats on the Kadaster that are kept in the Netherlands all the time.
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 06 Dec 2022 18:13 #133159

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Pete "I'm surprised if that works in Europe".  I understand your apprehension ...it does fly if you are US or Canadian flagged.  otherwise non vessel can visit another country
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 06 Dec 2022 15:28 #133157

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Canadian VHF radio liscence but I don't think it will be recognized in the EU.

just as a US license ...they can not be exchanged for an EU operators license.  BUT with these license you can operate a US or Canadian registered  VHF set.
 
I'm surprised if that works in Europe, as most of the VHF test here is about procedure, regardless of the set.   But if you say so...
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 06 Dec 2022 15:07 #133155

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Canadian VHF radio liscence but I don't think it will be recognized in the EU.

just as a US license ...they can not be exchanged for an EU operators license.  BUT with these license you can operate a US or Canadian registered  VHF set.

 
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 06 Dec 2022 09:32 #133145

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Like Malcolm, I got an email from AT last December asking for proof of connection with the Netherlands to justify the Dutch Ship's Licence.  For me the Kadaster registration was sufficient and I have since been invoiced for the renewal.   All that's changed is that I can no longer access my details online without an EEA ID.  

With your boat on the Kadaster, berthed and used in the Netherlands you should be Ok;  if there is a problem I'd phone AT.  I've found them very helpful.

Regarding your Operator's Certificate, a UK certificate is fine in NL (and I think Canadian is not as the standards are different). 
 
Pete Milne, Quo Vadis , Gent.
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 05 Dec 2022 23:00 #133140

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We received the Agentchap justification request last December.
we advised the ship was built in the Netherlands, registered on the Kadaster ,had berth in the Netherlands renewed annually and was accepted by the LVBHB as a Historic Vessel. This was accepted.
this year we received a request to pay the annual fee.
Maybe they are also cleaning their files of ‘phantom’ licence holders.
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 05 Dec 2022 22:16 #133139

  • Boyd Godfrey
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I fully realize that those here are not the authority on this topic but obviously you're far more knowledgeable than I.
I'm wondering what course of action you would advise? As I'd previously mentioned, im a Canadian citizen, and our recently purchased barge is Netherlands registered in our name and our home marina is in The Netherlands; we have no residency as such and plan to visit the EU for two 90 day periods annually as the shengen treaty allows.
I do hold a Canadian VHF radio liscence but I don't think it will be recognized in the EU.
My training and exam for ICC and radio is scheduled for this coming spring near London.
Thanks if you can point me in the right direction!
The most critical aspect of restoring an old boat is hiding the receipts from your wife.

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Changing ATIS 05 Dec 2022 22:04 #133138

  • Malcolm Cooke
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My ship’s radio licence was revoked simply because I had no particular connection with the Netherlands even though I am a EEU resident . As my barge is French registered it was a case of obtaining a French license which was no problem other than the changing of the ATIS in the actual radio. 
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 05 Dec 2022 21:53 #133137

  • Pete Milne
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Regarding Malcolm's original post of having his Dutch license revoked due to non-residency...is this a thing?
our boat is Netherlands registered and I'm taking my ICC and radio exam on our next visit overseas. I had assumed I could obtain my radio license in The Netherlands but maybe not after all?
FWIW I'm Canadian, we do have a mailing address but we aren't residents.
Yes, it is a thing.  Agentschap Telecom, the agency responsible for ships radio licencing recently asked me for evidence that my ship had some connection with the Netherlands - which doesn't seem unreasonable.  They were happy to hear that the barge is NL-registered.  I am British with a Belgian address and residency.
However, since earlier this year, to log into the AT website site one now needs a Dutch (DigID) or other EU ID.  So they are tightening up on who can use them, for the ships radio licence.  I have to figure out how to access my existing records, though it looks as though I am still licenced!

This suggests that it will become very difficult for a non-EEA resident (note: not citizen) to obtain a new ships licence - or to change details, like email address, for an existing barge even with a valid licence from AT.  I'll have to investigate further!

Your own - VHF operator's - certificate is separate from the ship's licence to carry a VHF/ATIS and can be used anywhere as long the certificate is recognised by the waterpolice where you want to travel as is the case for most European-issued operators certificates.
Pete Milne, Quo Vadis , Gent.
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Dutch VHF/ATIS licences 05 Dec 2022 20:30 #133135

  • Boyd Godfrey
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Regarding Malcolm's original post of having his Dutch license revoked due to non-residency...is this a thing?
our boat is Netherlands registered and I'm taking my ICC and radio exam on our next visit overseas. I had assumed I could obtain my radio license in The Netherlands but maybe not after all?
FWIW I'm Canadian, we do have a mailing address but we aren't residents.
 
The most critical aspect of restoring an old boat is hiding the receipts from your wife.

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