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TOPIC: Replacement windows

Replacement windows 22 Nov 2019 01:40 #111632

Chris......I just mounted them under a vent hole.....

trying to find pictures...but the are 90 and 60 mm computer fans. connected to the humidity controller a few euro's piece
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Replacement windows 21 Nov 2019 12:52 #111601

We had fitted double glazed glass windows with plastic frames below deck in the Netherlands and have no condensation and a lovely warm interior. Would never go back to alloy. In the wheel house where the Windows are large and single glazed we fit a plastic film each winter and again have no condensation and the heat stays in. The film is applied with double sided tape (supplied) and a hair blower pulls it skin tight. This year cost us 11 euro for two boxes. It is clear so you can see the world almost as normal.

A port hole open, a fire if you have one and no gas all helps, and of course insulation.

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Replacement windows 21 Nov 2019 10:46 #111595

Hi Jan

How do you get the air outside with the fans?

regards
Chris

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Replacement windows 21 Nov 2019 07:55 #111592

Jan Pieterse wrote: "A nice warm boat is fine, but whatever the inside temperature is (assuming it is rather higher than outside) there will be condensation unless the relative humidity is controlled."

Ventilation is the simplest answeer and Jan's humidity-controlled fans are a neat idea to make it happen

Yesterday I was chatting to a neighbour with good double-glazing all-round and radiator heating. Their wheelhouse has a sliding ventilator at the stern which they closed because it made a little cold draft in the winter. They suffered bad condensation. Then the opened the vent, cracked open a couple of portholes at the front of the boat (to make a tiny flow through the boat) and turned up the heating a little - and bingo! - No condensation and a cosy boat. So simple.

Some residents in the block of flats where I live in the UK have bad condensation. We produced a booklet for them to explain it and how to deal with it. Essentially the advice came down to just 'Ventilate (by cracking open a window or vent) and turn up the heating - and don't turn off the heating when you're not at home. ' The last as, when the air cools, it holds less moisture, so it condenses.

Pete


Pete

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Pete Milne, Quo Vadis , Gent.

Replacement windows 21 Nov 2019 03:59 #111589

"A nice warm boat is fine, but whatever the inside temperature is (assuming it is rather higher than outside) there will be condensation unless the relative humidity is controlled."

One reason why I installed humidity controlled extractor fans ( small computer fans)
They start at a pre set humidity, until it drops below the set level again.
One in the shower/head, one in the main cabin, and one in the pilothouse.

about 10 - 15 E on EBay...to control a 12 or 24V fan

www.ebay.com/itm/12V-24V-110V-220V-Digital-Air-Humidity-Control-Controller-WH8040-Range-1-99-tM/223540356913?hash=item340c0b2731:m:mbE9GWjuqioFB_Uutiuqx0w

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Replacement windows 20 Nov 2019 02:10 #111565

We are not arguing about the need for ventilation, though there are good and bad ways to do it . However, more heat is not the answer (nice though it may be).

In the absence of measures to reduce moisture, the hot air will eventually soak up water until it reaches 100% relative humidity. There will then be an increase in condensation because of the greater temperature difference between inside and out.

A nice warm boat is fine, but whatever the inside temperature is (assuming it is rather higher than outside) there will be condensation unless the relative humidity is controlled.

Paul is quite right that if the moisture can't condense on windows it will find somewhere else, perhaps out of sight, but that is not an argument against double glazing. It's another argument for reducing humidity.

Pete Milne wrote: Paul is absolutely right - the answer to condensation is more heat and ventilation. However any better insulation - like double-glazing - will reduce the fuel you need to use! Eliminating cold panels like single-glazed windows & skylights will also reduce cold draughts and make the boat feel cozier for less heat input.


Pete

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Replacement windows 19 Nov 2019 23:42 #111564

Paul is absolutely right - the answer to condensation is more heat and ventilation. However any better insulation - like double-glazing - will reduce the fuel you need to use! Eliminating cold panels like single-glazed windows & skylights will also reduce cold draughts and make the boat feel cozier for less heat input.


Pete

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Replacement windows 19 Nov 2019 22:03 #111563

John Forbes wrote: Paul,

When I said "your" problem, I meant it generically, I didn't mean to suggest that you yourself had a problem. People with solid fuel stoves seldom do.

But the fact is that double glazing itself (the glass, not the frames) will suffer less from condensation than single glazed windows because the glass will be warmer. Condensation occurs when moist air meets a colder surface.

Cheers

Hi John
I totally agree, I thought that my first post covered this in some detail, all the more reason for it to happen where it can be seen and managed, rather than in some hidden damaging place, be it a cold water pipe, or the cold bilge.
Condensation itself is not the problem, it's an indication of other problems, a tell tail if you will, that something is wrong with the air inside a structure (the RH is too high) whether that structure is a barge or school hall.
There is a modern tend to us to live in sealed airtight boxes in a bid to lower energy use, but it only works if a) the whole design and building concepts and building materials and techniques are employed from the start of the project.including such things as mechanical heat recapture ventilation systems etc 2) Refurbishments (barges and buildings alike)is are much more difficult projects, as to adopting one good (as in double or triple glazing) singularly, will not work, It still needs correct ventilation and air circulation or dehumidification within the space to be effective.

This may be of interest.
www.stanekwindows.com/17-window-condensation-solutions.aspx

Paul Hayes

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Replacement windows 19 Nov 2019 21:26 #111562

Paul,

When I said "your" problem, I meant it generically, I didn't mean to suggest that you yourself had a problem. People with solid fuel stoves seldom do.

But the fact is that double glazing itself (the glass, not the frames) will suffer less from condensation than single glazed windows because the glass will be warmer. Condensation occurs when moist air meets a colder surface.

Cheers

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Replacement windows 19 Nov 2019 19:52 #111561

Hi John

"There is a limit to how hot you can make the boat, and whatever heat it is the air will soon absorb any spare moisture, so just making the boat hotter isn't going to solve your problem (except very temporarily)."

We do not have problems, indeed when it' very cold the relative humidity becomes too low, (below 40%) to be comfortable we stand a cast iron kettle on top of the woodburner to humidify the air, other people we know stand saucers of water on the hearth for the same effect.

The limit of how much heat to put into a boat is again very simple, if I can't sit in a Tee shirt when its -10C or below outside, I don't have enough wood on the fire, the target temperature in the salon being around 24 for comfort.

The present conditions of 4C outside mean that we still have the Fire Hole reducing bricks in the hearth, and dry windows.

I've been on many, many boats with only radiators with streams of water running down windows. Ventilation is the key. As said double glazing only sends condensation somewhere you can't manage it, unless a dehumidifier is put to work.

Paul Hayes

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Replacement windows 19 Nov 2019 15:03 #111551

Whilst I agree with much of what you say, Paul, especially the use of heating by combustion (doesn't have to be solid fuel, a traditional oil stove has the same effect), I do take issue with your advocating single glazing.

It's obviously best to reduce heat loss from the boat, so apart from cost there is no reason not to install double glazing, especially using either wood or pvc frames.

There is a limit to how hot you can make the boat, and whatever heat it is the air will soon absorb any spare moisture, so just making the boat hotter isn't going to solve your problem (except very temporarily).

What we are trying to do is to reduce humidity. As you say, we can't stop breathing or cooking, and if we don't have a shower friends will soon complain. So we need to extract moisture from the air while trying to retain heat if possible.

There are three practical options:

1 Combustion heating. It does lose heat, but it's very effective at lowering humidity.

2. A dehumidifier. These are relatively cheap to buy and run, and do a great job. Mine is always switched on in spring and autumn when heating isn't necessary but the windows are closed.

3. A passive heat exchanger. These take heat from outgoing air and transfer it to dry incoming air. I am currently designing one with several copper pipes inside a larger pipe. But here is a commercial one to which you can attach low wattage 12V computer fans:

tinyurl.com/ttosk7d

2 and 3 both require some electricity, so are best for boats that are connected to the mains in winter. For boats that are out and about some form of combustion heating is the simplest solution, provided it takes air from inside the boat. Obviously with any form of combustion heating, you need to ensure there is an adequate supply of fresh air to replace the oxygen used in combustion.

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Replacement windows 19 Nov 2019 10:41 #111547

I'm going to put my tuppence worth in here.

What nobody has said, or asked is "What causes condensation". Simply itoccures when warm air of a high relative humidity comes into contact with a cold surface.

So lets consider how this can be stopped.
1) Heat the air to a higher temperature so that it can hold more water.
2) Increase ventilation to reduce relative humidity.
3) Stop the air contacting a cooler surface,
4) A continuation from 3). Not having any cool surfaces, complete insulation.
5) Reduce the water evaporated,
6) Avoid "cold spots" inside the living space.

All of the suggestions so far favour 3). There is in my opinion one flaw, that is if the condensation cannot form on the windows / frames and will find an alternate cool surface to condense on.

If it condenses on the windows / frames it can be easily managed.

For years on this forum I have been singing the praised of solid or oil fueled stoves which pull the air required for combustion through the boats interior and shove it up the flue, this takes care of 2) above. Boats built to the UK Boat Safety Scheme ventilation requirements have far less condensation than many "European" builds / conversions. Indeed many boats with woodburners can be spotted a mile away because that have a few windows ajar to a) Aid ventilation and b) maintain a comfortable temperature (below 28C :-) inside)

1) above would by hard to achieve with anything like normal air changes required for comfortable living (breathing) conditions. Those of us who grew up in houses with no insulation, central heating and an air brick in every room will testify to "good ventilation" levels.

4) above. It's impossible to insulate every part of a barge, and if you do, provide a complete vapor barrier to prevent interstitial condensation. So the water that used to collect on the windows / frames will find a lovely cold piece of steel to form on and possibly cause corrosion problems where you can least see them. Many vessels rot from the inside.

5) Most water vapor is produced by use breathing, difficult to reduce, lots more comes from cooking activities, galley air extraction will reduce the effect of this, showers pump water into the air, every shower and toilet space should have fan forced ventilation (extraction).

6) Try to eliminate cold areas inside the living space, don't close off "unused" spaces (wheel houses in particular) try to keep them at 10C or above, this can often be done by running a simple desk fan on slow speed to "agitate" the air mixing hot air at ceiling level with cooler air at low level.

So in conclusion, I advocate, single glazed windows, plenty of ventilation , a warm healthy internal temperature, and the use of 4 squares of kitchen paper every morning in the winter to wipe the few globules of water that form on them, throw the paper in the fire and have a cuppa, think of the several thousand pounds you have saved on not installing new window. The above will cost a little in extra heating fuel, but comfort levels and healthy air changes will improve.

Paul Hayes

The inside temperature is 25C at the moment, I'm sitting in a Tee shirt, under a 4" mushroom air vent, outside is 6C, with my back to a aluminium single glazed window, and have just run my fingers around the window frame and it's perfectly dry, with no "maintenance" yet this morning.

I've just Googled Condensation in structures, this is the first on that came up I have not read it, but I guess it's not much different to my text

www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Condensation_in_buildings

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Replacement windows 18 Nov 2019 11:48 #111514

Thanks Chris and Pete. We will contact Boatglass and report back on how it goes. We will definitely mention Blue Flag and if they can help us, we'll add them to the suppliers' guide.

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Replacement windows 17 Nov 2019 16:52 #111495

Yes Pete, thanks for the correction and link. And if anyone contacts them, please mention you found them via Blue Flag, it helps a lot to encourage advertisers to continue to support our magazine when they get direct feedback.

Pete Milne wrote: I think Chris meant Boatglass.eu Tempting - to one who's just been round the barge mopping up the condensation!

Pete

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Replacement windows 16 Nov 2019 16:50 #111468

I think Chris meant Boatglass.eu Tempting - to one who's just been round the barge mopping up the condensation!

Pete

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Pete Milne, Quo Vadis , Gent.

Replacement windows 16 Nov 2019 14:48 #111462

Stephen. I know two barges with Boathlass pvc windows and they are superb. They can be chosen in any RAL colour so don' t lookike plastic at all. Genuine cold bridging stops condensation unlike many so called aluminium double glazed units. They are expensive but probably the only way to really stop the sweats.
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Replacement windows 16 Nov 2019 11:45 #111451

We are looking to replace our single glazed, aluminum framed widows. Condensation is terrible and the frames act as interior refrigerator coils. There is an ad in Blue Flag for Boatglass.eu which sounds promising, but the frames are PVC. Has anyone used them? How do PVC frames wear over the long-term. Does anyone make quality insulated aluminum double-glazed windows for barges? Any recommendations? I've looked through the suppliers guide with limited results. We are outside Paris and will head up toward Belgium and the Netherlands in the Spring, so suppliers there would be best.

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Replacement windows 08 Jul 2014 16:26 #56006

  • Peter O'Brien
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Thanks

--- Original Message ---

From: "DBA Forum (B) - Chris Grant"
Sent: 8 July 2014 15:58
To: "Barges subscribers"
Subject: Replacement windows


Peter

I know I said don't use aluminium, sweaty frames and a bit bus like for my
liking and I stand by that still but if you have decided then Ament
Metaalbewerking ~ Heikemp 1607 ~ B-3640 Kinrooi ~ Belgium. ~ tel: + 32 (0)
89 70 30 50 ~ email: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. build Linssen hulls but
also have their own aluminium bespoke window shop.
> Another try
>
> 'Can anyone recommend a yard or tradesman in
> Belgium/Netherlands who you would recommend for this type of work '

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Replacement windows 08 Jul 2014 15:59 #56005

Peter

I know I said don't use aluminium, sweaty frames and a bit bus like for my
liking and I stand by that still but if you have decided then Ament
Metaalbewerking ~ Heikemp 1607 ~ B-3640 Kinrooi ~ Belgium. ~ tel: + 32 (0)
89 70 30 50 ~ email: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. build Linssen hulls but
also have their own aluminium bespoke window shop.
> Another try
>
> 'Can anyone recommend a yard or tradesman in
> Belgium/Netherlands who you would recommend for this type of work '

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Replacement windows 08 Jul 2014 15:07 #56003

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Another try

'Can anyone recommend a yard or tradesman in Belgium/Netherlands who you would recommend for this type of work '

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Replacement windows 05 Jul 2014 21:54 #55969

  • Frank Kordbarlag
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I had aluminium single glazed windows on my ship. That was a drafty affair, and the condensation was terrible too. I put in PVC windows (tilting and opening inwards) and the inside is a lot warmer in the winter, no condensation either. I could not recomment anything else.

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Replacement windows 04 Jul 2014 10:32 #55942

On Thu, 3 Jul 2014 16:33:40 +0200, "DBA Forum (B) - Peter O'Brien"
wrote:

>I am considering tearing out my existing iroku windows (curved top, double glazed, hopper) and replacing them with aluminium to cut down on maint and leaks.
>
>Can anyone recommend a yard or tradesman in Belgium/Netherlands who you would recommend for this type of work (probably too small a job for a 'yard' as such though I have no illusions on the bill size :)

My windows are uPVC, double-glazed, an approach I would use again.
Usual rule of thumb applies to windows - domestic price £X, marine
price £2X, yacht price £3X. So aim for domestic, I say.

They are available in a range of colours (including wood-like). You
can even get them made with curved tops (at rather more expense), or
have the tops of the glass "masked" so the glass appears to have a
curved top (although the frames remain rectangular). You can also
mask the exterior of the frames if you want them to appear curved top
too.

Absolutely no frame sweating, and no condensation on the glass. Also
no painting, no rotting, etc. I use tilt-and-turn for opening (like
hoppers slanting inward, plus at the same time side hinged opening
inward which also gives you an emergency escape route).

Adrian



Adrian Stott
Tel. UK (0)7956-299966

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Replacement windows 03 Jul 2014 21:12 #55938

  • Peter O'Brien
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Thanks Balliol - sounds like we think alike - my windows are dutch barge (curved top) but Wesley Marine are a possibility (I have also looked at Channelglaze). I am looking for someone in Be/Nl to do the install and carpentry for me so I get a good finish.

Peter

--- Original Message ---

From: "DBA Forum (B) - Balliol Fowden"
Sent: 3 July 2014 19:51
To: "Barges subscribers"
Subject: Replacement windows


Hi Peter,

We made the mistake of fitting mahogany windows in our raised saloon cabin. To be fair they did last 25 years but by that time they were more P38 than mahogany.

With respect to Chris, I'm afraid that I view wooden windows as a very expensive mistake, particularly where they are surface mounted and the wood moves differentially to the steel, as would I think be the case with your Sagar.

I replaced my mahogany mistakes with double glazed alloy framed windows last year,. As I used to do when boatbuilding, I covered as much of the internally visible aluminium as possible with the mahogany inner trims. I find that that adequately removes the need for a thermal break in the frames as well as maintaining the "wood-look" inside. We have no condensation problems, in fact rather less than before since the old windows were single glazed.

My job was not without various problems but if the apertures are uniform and square, replacement with alloy should be quite easy.

Our windows were made to my template by Wesley Marine Windows in Nottingham, who did an excellent job at a very realistic price. If your apertures are square and uniform then the job should really be very simple, the only difficult bit perhaps being re-making the inner trims, and you may have some redundant holes in the cabin sides (or the sub-frames, if your windows are fitted in angle sub-frames) which need weld or epoxy filling.

Best regards,

Balliol.

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Replacement windows 03 Jul 2014 19:51 #55937

  • Balliol Fowden
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Hi Peter,

We made the mistake of fitting mahogany windows in our raised saloon cabin. To be fair they did last 25 years but by that time they were more P38 than mahogany.

With respect to Chris, I'm afraid that I view wooden windows as a very expensive mistake, particularly where they are surface mounted and the wood moves differentially to the steel, as would I think be the case with your Sagar.

I replaced my mahogany mistakes with double glazed alloy framed windows last year,. As I used to do when boatbuilding, I covered as much of the internally visible aluminium as possible with the mahogany inner trims. I find that that adequately removes the need for a thermal break in the frames as well as maintaining the "wood-look" inside. We have no condensation problems, in fact rather less than before since the old windows were single glazed.

My job was not without various problems but if the apertures are uniform and square, replacement with alloy should be quite easy.

Our windows were made to my template by Wesley Marine Windows in Nottingham, who did an excellent job at a very realistic price. If your apertures are square and uniform then the job should really be very simple, the only difficult bit perhaps being re-making the inner trims, and you may have some redundant holes in the cabin sides (or the sub-frames, if your windows are fitted in angle sub-frames) which need weld or epoxy filling.

Best regards,

Balliol.

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Replacement windows 03 Jul 2014 19:24 #55935

  • Peter O'Brien
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Chris

I would put in double glazed units

Peter

--- Original Message ---

From: "DBA Forum (B) - Chris Grant"
Sent: 3 July 2014 18:55
To: "Barges subscribers"
Subject: Replacement windows


Peter

Be very wary of aluminium windows regarding condensation with no cold break
in the frame and not often double glazed. I've seen seevral Dutch yachty
type frames fitted to barges and they poor with condensation in winter,
never designed for year round living. Wood is always going to do a better
job and shouldn't leak if properly made and maintained.

> I am considering tearing out my existing iroku windows
> (curved top, double glazed, hopper) and replacing them with
> aluminium to cut down on maint and leaks.
>
> Can anyone recommend a yard or tradesman in
> Belgium/Netherlands who you would recommend for this type of
> work (probably too small a job for a 'yard' as such though I
> have no illusions on the bill size :)
>
> Peter
>
>

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Replacement windows 03 Jul 2014 18:56 #55932

Peter

Be very wary of aluminium windows regarding condensation with no cold break
in the frame and not often double glazed. I've seen seevral Dutch yachty
type frames fitted to barges and they poor with condensation in winter,
never designed for year round living. Wood is always going to do a better
job and shouldn't leak if properly made and maintained.

> I am considering tearing out my existing iroku windows
> (curved top, double glazed, hopper) and replacing them with
> aluminium to cut down on maint and leaks.
>
> Can anyone recommend a yard or tradesman in
> Belgium/Netherlands who you would recommend for this type of
> work (probably too small a job for a 'yard' as such though I
> have no illusions on the bill size :)
>
> Peter
>
>

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Replacement windows 03 Jul 2014 16:33 #55928

  • Peter O'Brien
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Hi

I am considering tearing out my existing iroku windows (curved top, double glazed, hopper) and replacing them with aluminium to cut down on maint and leaks.

Can anyone recommend a yard or tradesman in Belgium/Netherlands who you would recommend for this type of work (probably too small a job for a 'yard' as such though I have no illusions on the bill size :)

Peter

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