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Navigating and living on the waterways of Great Britain & Ireland and news of canal developments.
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TOPIC: UK Budget Red Diesel - no change

UK Budget Red Diesel - no change 19 Mar 2020 17:40 #114659

Oil prices are now at $25 a barrel, and could go lower.

Good news for barge owners, and bad for President Putin.

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UK Budget Red Diesel - no change 12 Mar 2020 19:34 #114390

  • Andy Soper
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A surprising number don’t have a working engine judging by the requests on some Facebook sites for a tow (meeting their CC targets)!

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Andy Soper
DBA Director Representation and Treasurer
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

UK Budget Red Diesel - no change 12 Mar 2020 18:18 #114386

  • Balliol Fowden
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Given the distances that many narrowboats and wide beams travel some would manage on a 20 litre white diesel tank. Jerrycan?

Balliol.

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UK Budget Red Diesel - no change 12 Mar 2020 17:21 #114382

It seems to me that the majority of barges (though perhaps not so easy with narrow-boats) could find space for another tank when (as will almost certainly happen) we lose access to red diesel. Indeed many boats have two or more tanks already, so all that is required is to separate them.

One tank would then be used for white diesel for the engine and the other for 28 second heating oil - which most heaters would probably prefer. Indeed things like Eberspachers are expected to become more reliable when fed with decent fuel.

If we see this change as pretty much inevitable it might be better to accept it and devote our energies and lobbying/consultation time to ensuring that there is a planned cut-off day, and that boat-owners and fuel suppliers are ready for it.

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UK Budget Red Diesel - no change 11 Mar 2020 21:36 #114364

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From the HMRC paper:

This measure introduces enabling legislation in Finance Bill 2020 relating to the propulsion of private pleasure craft. Details on implementation will set out in due course. Private pleasure craft already pay white diesel rates for their propulsion, even though they are allowed to put red diesel in their tanks. Under this measure, private pleasure craft would have to use white diesel in their propulsion tanks. Craft with a separate fuel tank for domestic use on-board can continue to use red diesel for this purpose. Where craft have one tank for propulsion and heating, the government will explore options that prevent them from having to pay a higher rate of duty on their heating use than they would otherwise have to pay.

The measure was subject to a summer 2019 consultation, a response to which will be published later this year alongside government’s consultation on red diesel.

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Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director Representation and Treasurer
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

UK Budget Red Diesel - no change 11 Mar 2020 20:38 #114363

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After a first read it is a reversal of current policy with white diesel only for recreational boat propulsion in response to the CJEU judgement
No implementation date advised.
Red will be allowed in a separate tank for heating (no mention of power generation).
A procedure is to be developed for boats with single tanks feeding heating and propulsion.

Another 'consultation' with implementation before even advising the outcome of the consultation!

The last communication we had from HMRC read:
Dear Stakeholders,
Thank you for your responses, and those of your members, to our recent consultation, we had over 1,600 including those that some of you helpfully collated for us.
These have provided considerable evidence and concerns which we will take into account when developing the next steps.
When we met, we explained that we expected to publish the government response along with the finance bill which we expected to be in November.
Recent political events mean that we are no longer having a November budget, but instead are to have a general election on 12th December. Therefore, no documents will be published, or policy announcements made before the election.
I will be in touch again once Ministers in the Government formed after the election have decided the next steps for this policy area.
Best regards,
Ian Berry

No contact made!

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Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director Representation and Treasurer
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

UK Budget Red Diesel - no change 11 Mar 2020 20:19 #114362

  • Balliol Fowden
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Yes, I am sure it is a reaction to the European judgement, but it also makes sense in many ways for pleasure craft, where it has been accepted for some time that taxed white is a reasonable requirement for pleasure boat propulsion.

The point to watch is whether any rebate does become available for domestic use. This is left rather open in the budget statement.

We don’t want the Dutch situation where a houseboat has to run its central heating on taxed motor fuel whilst the house alongside runs on kerosene. Then I guess there will be an argument over the word “domestic” and whether the generator constitutes domestic use or not.

In my opinion the best situation is the present Belgian one: if you have two tanks then you can use one for red, so long as it is only connected to non-propulsion equipment.

Balliol.

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UK Budget Red Diesel - no change 11 Mar 2020 20:14 #114361

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Andy Soper
DBA Director Representation and Treasurer
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

UK Budget Red Diesel - no change 11 Mar 2020 19:58 #114360

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Hello Balliol,

Yes - I think I agree with you - but at least we know there will be a consultation - which we have already been invoved in.

It may just be a holding response to the EU court case (as we are still subject to EU law until the end of 2021).

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Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director Representation and Treasurer
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

UK Budget Red Diesel - no change 11 Mar 2020 19:36 #114359

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I read this (past tense) as saying that in future UK pleasure boats will have to use white diesel for propulsion, but that a rebate may be applied for fuel used for heating, and possibly generating. In other ways the system is turned on its head: you use white, but claim a rebate for non-propulsion fuel, unless you have two tanks in which case you can put red in one for heating and perhaps generating.

Balliol.

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UK Budget Red Diesel - no change 11 Mar 2020 19:34 #114358

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But I see from the RYA page they fear that only white diesel will be allowed waterside:

The government is set to consult with red diesel users to determine whether continued access to the fuel is justifiable. The consultation will be conducted with a view to remove the entitlement to red diesel use, except for agricultural, rail and non-commercial heating purposes by April 2022.

Commercial boats on open waters, including ferries and fishing boats, will remain entitled to the Marine Voyages Relief so will not face a charge increase if the entitlement to use red diesel is revoked.

This decision has been taken by the Chancellor with the intention to incentivise businesses to improve energy efficiency and to investigate greener alternatives where possible.

The RYA believes that while red diesel remains the primary and often only fuel available at the waterside it should continue to be available to recreational boaters in the UK for the purpose of propelling a private recreational vessel. HMRC have confirmed there will be a consultation in the spring and the RYA will be working with other significant stakeholders to make a strong representation on behalf of recreational boaters. Although details of the consultation have yet to be set out, the RYA remains fully engaged with the debate surrounding the continued availability of diesel for private recreational craft at the waterside.

I'll keep watching and ensure that we are at HMRC / Treasury talks.

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Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director Representation and Treasurer
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

UK Budget Red Diesel - no change 11 Mar 2020 19:08 #114357

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From the Budget Paper

2.232 Red diesel: Prohibition of use for propelling private pleasure craft – Private
pleasure craft already pay the standard white diesel rate for propulsion. They will still be entitled
to use red diesel for their heating use. Where they have one tank for propulsion and heating, the
government will explore options that prevent them from having to pay a higher rate of duty on
their heating use than they would otherwise have to pay. Details on the implementation of this
power will be set out in due course.

So no change from current but not sure why options are being explored - we have a self-certifying scheme already. Perhaps HMRC think it is being abused?
The following user(s) said Thank You: Tim Crew, Alan Kerr

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Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director Representation and Treasurer
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org
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