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Navigating and living on the waterways of Great Britain & Ireland and news of canal developments.
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TOPIC: Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways.

Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 11 May 2020 18:52 #115885

  • Michal Kuligowski
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As suspected, SRF was indeed already in touch with Peter Voerman and it seems like ES-TRIN is almost complete now. Reading betwean the linines we nearly missed some sort of deadline for ES-TRIN being 1st of may. I should be able to elaborate in more detail after talking to SRF in person. Hopefully we can go to netherlands and get all the formalities done soon now...

Thank you all for valuable input !

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Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 05 May 2020 00:04 #115720

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Bob Marsland wrote: Hi Michel,

I agree wholeheartedly with Charlie's comment about keeping the integrity of the external appearance of your ship. That is why I suggested you contact LVBHB as retaining traditional Dutch vessels is their mantra.

Concerning ES-TRIN and your understandable budgetary concerns, it is worth considering the cost of doing this in the future; new engine, watertight bulkheads etc. If you haven't done so yet, may I suggest you read the page in the Knowledgebase on ES-TRIN as well as the several links within that page:

barges.org/knowledgebase/regulations/regulations-boats/triwv

This is the most apposite sentence:

WARNING - craft not certified before the cut-off date(s) will then be considered "new" craft and hence will need to have a certificate attesting full compliance of the craft to the Directive !!!!

and it may be too late but contacting PV, mentioning the traditional nature of your ship, as suggested previously, should clarify.

Best wishes,

Bob


Hi Bob,

I have asked Lex at SRF if he would be able to help with ES-TRIN and if he knows Peter as well as expresing that we definetly want to keep her original lines . Let's see what happens next, they might be well speaking to eachother already...

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Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 04 May 2020 21:45 #115719

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Charles Mclaren wrote: Michael hi,
Two things: I live at Hermitage on Viod… Residential moorings in or near London are like hens teeth. I would make finding somewhere a priority. A barge without a mooring is a problem!
Second, think very hard before you raise the coamings. You have such a pretty Barge and to keep it original for me would be very important. There are ways of insulating the roof that without raising it. Speak to SRF… They are the best YARD I know.I’m sorry I missed your message about Heat Pump’s, please give me a ring (07711) 487955 if you want to chat about them. Charlie


Hello Charles,
Small world ! Yes, certainly. It is our priority to find mooring now that we know what size and kind of vessel we are tring to find a place for. But it also looks like Lee Navigation would just about fit our barge and all though it is not ideal in long run it might be a good to begin with. Otherwise Medway as it is not neccessary for us to be in london everyday and perhaps it would be a nice change until something comes up in town.

In regards to the coaming, we are indeed talking to SRF. It was in fact Lex Tichelaar who sugested that we do that and sugested to do so in a way that would preserve the lines. I belive he loves classic lines as much as we do ;)

Heat pumps are somehow on hold for time being as it is our mooring that will dictate if water SHP is an option for us. Air source is a no go for the exact reason of not wanting to spoil the traditional look the barge has now as well as possibly being tool loud. But it would be great to have a chat regardles, also about your co-operative. I will send you a tex one of those days to see if the time is good to chat. Much appreciated !

Take care,

Michal

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Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 04 May 2020 12:46 #115712

Hi Michel,

I agree wholeheartedly with Charlie's comment about keeping the integrity of the external appearance of your ship. That is why I suggested you contact LVBHB as retaining traditional Dutch vessels is their mantra.

Concerning ES-TRIN and your understandable budgetary concerns, it is worth considering the cost of doing this in the future; new engine, watertight bulkheads etc. If you haven't done so yet, may I suggest you read the page in the Knowledgebase on ES-TRIN as well as the several links within that page:

barges.org/knowledgebase/regulations/regulations-boats/triwv

This is the most apposite sentence:

WARNING - craft not certified before the cut-off date(s) will then be considered "new" craft and hence will need to have a certificate attesting full compliance of the craft to the Directive !!!!

and it may be too late but contacting PV, mentioning the traditional nature of your ship, as suggested previously, should clarify.

Best wishes,

Bob

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Bob & Bobbie Marsland
MS La Chouette
In DBA Barge Register:
barges.org/members/bargeregister/bargeregister-search?assetaction=detail&vesselid=165

Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 04 May 2020 11:58 #115711

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Michael hi,
Two things: I live at Hermitage on Viod… Residential moorings in or near London are like hens teeth. I would make finding somewhere a priority. A barge without a mooring is a problem!
Second, think very hard before you raise the coamings. You have such a pretty Barge and to keep it original for me would be very important. There are ways of insulating the roof that without raising it. Speak to SRF… They are the best YARD I know.I’m sorry I missed your message about Heat Pump’s, please give me a ring (07711) 487955 if you want to chat about them. Charlie
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Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 04 May 2020 10:48 #115710

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Andy Soper wrote:
ES-TRIN is significantly more stringent than BSS. The former includes an out of water survey (but you are having that done?) and a check of safety equipment, systems and structure £2000. BSS majors on safety to others and is only an hour or so to complete - £200. See ES-TRIN in barges.org/library-members/regulations and BSS - www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination-and-certification/private-boats/ . Yes - with an ES-TRIN you can get several years exemption from BSS but it varies between UK navigation authority. In PLA water and the the tidal Medway you don't need BSS or ES-TRIN. Talk to the shipyard about ES-TRIN they may not be as confident as you hope.

You can get aqoute from MSAmlin via barges.org. - barges.org/members/members-insurance-test

Good luck!


It all seem clear now, thank you ! It will brobably end up beeing a cost dependent decison ...

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Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 04 May 2020 10:44 #115709

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Andy Soper wrote: Hello Michal and Ana,
Moorings - Your fall back would probably be Port Werburgh - www.wanttoliveafloat.com/residential-marine/ - but there are better options including other marinas on the Medway.
If you keep her exterior traditional then Hermitage Wharf - a community mooring would be an excellent option if space is available - www.hermitagemoorings.org/
London marinas are expensive - CRT run ones can cost more than £25000 per annum. SouthDock Marina is council owned and probably the cheapest option - www.southwark.gov.uk/leisure-and-sport/south-dock-marina/about-south-dock-marina

Thank you Andy,

They are both local to me and certainly on the radar. I am also involved with few Co-operatives ( both housing and bussines ) so Hermitage would be a good place to check out even if it's just for a visit.

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Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 02 May 2020 14:15 #115701

Michal Kuligowski wrote:
Where she is registered seem to only matter for insurance purposes ? What are the benefits of keeping her on Dutch vs UK registry … ? Seems to me like it might just complicate things if she’s primarily in the UK.
Michal and Ana


All my comments were predicated on the thought you may wish to navigate your ship on the Continent in the future.

Maintaining your Dutch registration may, just may, be preferable to maintaining your traditional qualifications and be of interest to LVBHB. Andy's comments are more aligned to your immediate intentions for the barge and may well be more appropriate. It is, of course, for you to decide. I suggest you find time to enter into correspondence/conversation with someone at LVBHB to help you in this respect.

Also, do please contact Peter Voerman re ES-TRIN as to do it in the future will most certainly involve you in massive increases in cost. Even now I am not sure it will be possible. He will be able to advise, I'm sure.

Best wishes,

Bob
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MS La Chouette
In DBA Barge Register:
barges.org/members/bargeregister/bargeregister-search?assetaction=detail&vesselid=165

Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 02 May 2020 13:52 #115699

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Hello Bob,

Thank you for your replay.

We certainly want to preserve her beauty, she also has a complete sailing rig! A lot of learning to be done. One thing we will probably end up doing though is rising coaming and possibly replacing wooden hatches / roof with steel so that we can properly insulate her with spray foam. Making sure we preserve the lines though…

LVBHB looks very good indeed! We’ll look into it.

Yes, ES-TRIN sounds like a good idea but given it’s not essential let’s see what the cost will be and if we can afford it after expenses that are compulsory or essential to make her liveable …

Thank you for referring me to Peter Voerman, I’ll get in touch and see what he thinks. I’ll also ask about the possibility of not following “new ship” requirements because of historical value of the vessel our contact at SRF .

Insurance wise, GJW gave me a quote of £370 annum . Let’s see what others say and what the terms are. I’ll definitely contact EOC and see how it feels.
Most importantly though there seem to be few reasonable options so that aspect of living aboard should be fine one way or another.

Where she is registered seem to only matter for insurance purposes ? What are the benefits of keeping her on Dutch vs UK registry … ? Seems to me like it might just complicate things if she’s primarily in the UK.

Lastly passive house standard is a dream and something to work towards, not necessarily something easy to obtain. We’ll start with good insulation, nice thermal store and biomass boilers stove that can also burn logs (this one seems to be the only one that does it all : iwonapellets.com/product/felix-aqua-long-13-kw-twin-glass-automatic-cleaning ) and see how it goes and how much money we’ve got left …

Thanks again for all the input ! Much appreciated.

Michal and Ana

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Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 30 Apr 2020 21:59 #115657

Hello Michal and Ana,
Moorings - Your fall back would probably be Port Werburgh - www.wanttoliveafloat.com/residential-marine/ - but there are better options including other marinas on the Medway.
If you keep her exterior traditional then Hermitage Wharf - a community mooring would be an excellent option if space is available - www.hermitagemoorings.org/
London marinas are expensive - CRT run ones can cost more than £25000 per annum. SouthDock Marina is council owned and probably the cheapest option - www.southwark.gov.uk/leisure-and-sport/south-dock-marina/about-south-dock-marina

ES-TRIN is significantly more stringent than BSS. The former includes an out of water survey (but you are having that done?) and a check of safety equipment, systems and structure £2000. BSS majors on safety to others and is only an hour or so to complete - £200. See ES-TRIN in barges.org/library-members/regulations and BSS - www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination-and-certification/private-boats/ . Yes - with an ES-TRIN you can get several years exemption from BSS but it varies between UK navigation authority. In PLA water and the the tidal Medway you don't need BSS or ES-TRIN. Talk to the shipyard about ES-TRIN they may not be as confident as you hope.

You can get aqoute from MSAmlin via barges.org. - barges.org/members/members-insurance-test

Good luck!
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Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director Representation and Treasurer
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 30 Apr 2020 14:23 #115648

Hello Michel and Ana,

Welcome to DBA and to our forum.

What a beautiful ship your Klipperaak, Femmigje, is. Do you intend to keep the exterior the same as you convert the interior to your own living conditions? You may find it interesting to join our sister organisation in The Netherlands, the LVBHB. I quote from this website:

LVBHB (de Landelijke Vereniging tot Behoud van het Historisch Bedrijfsvaartuig)
A group of enthusiasts who strive to preserve old ships built for commercial use. Our passion is for vessels over 50 years ago representing Dutch glory on the German, Belgium and Dutch rivers and canals
.

If there is half a chance you might wish to navigate in Mainland Europe and also to better enable a future sale, I would strongly recommend you get ES-TRIN certification now. It may still be possible to do so without having to comply with "new ship" requirements and I would suggest you contact Peter Voerman who is best able to advise... in my humble opinion. Peter is a surveyor (expert) as well as a DBA member and you may find his contact details if you hover over <Members> at the top of the page here and click on <Member Finder>, then insert his family name in the form.

Peter also works for EOC Verzekeringen and it is their agency EOC Verzekeringsadvies I would suggest you consider insuring your ship through. Contact Rene Kamphuis at: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and mention my name. He would in all probability suggest DNA Yachtinsurance where Rob de Nijs (This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.) I have found to be extremely helpful. That is where we now insure La Chouette.

If you travel to UK with an ES-TRIN under your belt I believe you will have a period of time before the UK regulations require you to have a BSS. Andy will doubtless enlarge on this.

Personally, I would keep the ship on the Dutch kadaster. We have kept our barge on Dutch registration since purchase in 1992, as have many other members.

To convert the interior to passivhuis standards will be challenging, to say the least, so I look forward to following your progress. Thinking of self-building another house, I am shortly to attend a zoom virtual workshop on building to passivhuis standards.

Good luck in all your ventures.

Best wishes,

Bob
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barges.org/members/bargeregister/bargeregister-search?assetaction=detail&vesselid=165

Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 30 Apr 2020 11:26 #115640

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That is true, it should be possible to get as far as Tottenham at least. Anyway it's probably not the best option for us long term but it could be good at first...

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Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 30 Apr 2020 11:20 #115639

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Hello Andy,
Thank you for your reply and clarifications !

I believe you got the intended use for Femmigje right / a houseboat ( the dream being an off grid passive house standard-ish vessel )

Mooring, we don’t have anything sorted yet. We are starting to contact marinas now that we have the details of the vessel but are also keen to see how we would do on the Lea ( even tho as John Frazer mentioned, we won’t get very far with those dimensions). It probably deserves a separate post but any pointers for mooring a beautiful historic vessel in or around London are welcome.

ES-TRIN , it’s great to know that it is not necessary in the UK but given that we are most likely going to need to comply with BSS I wonder how much of a crossover there is and if we shouldn’t just do it straight away while the ship is being worked on at SRF Harlingen. The point of Peter Smith (above) is also valid but we don’t have ES-TRIN at the momemnt / so it wouldn’t be maintaining it, we would need to obtain it. Our contact at SRF don’t seem to be worried about it though (knowing how little budget we have) so perhaps it’s not too far of…Anyway the main question about ES-TRIN for us seems to be :

If BSS and ES-TRIN are both safety certificates surely there must be quite a lot of crossover and while we could probably save 2 / 3 K by not doing it perhaps it better to just do it, to get the ship more BSS ready but also to have an option of cruising or selling it in the EU if we ever want to?

I suppose the main deciding factor will be the cost of doing ES-TRIN vs not doing it + the cost of BSS vs the convenience of having ES-TRIN.

Insurance, indeed that’s something we are starting to look at now that we know which vessel we want to insure. Thank you for the leads, we will contact MS-Amlin and GJW Direct.

Thanks again everyone!

I’ll update on the progress as it might make a nice case study for someone else. In the meantime I am all ears!

Cheers!

Michal

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Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 30 Apr 2020 02:27 #115633

I would think there is a benefit in maintaining ES-TRIN purely to maintain the option to sell the vessel into Europe at a later date. If the grandfather clauses are relinquished the cost to meet the standards applicable at the time of selling could be prohibitive resulting in a smaller market of the U.K. only.
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Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 29 Apr 2020 23:58 #115627

Michal Kuligowski wrote: Hi everyone!



A bit about the barge first:

23m x 5m klipperakk.

Michal and Ana


You won't get far up the Lee with those dimensions
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Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 29 Apr 2020 19:33 #115621

Hello Michal and Ana,

Firstly - congratulations on finding such a beautiful ship in historic condition!

If you want to use her inland in the EU then she would need ES-TRIN and if you carry out extensive modifications then there will be significant hurdles to cross. There is an alternative route for historic craft but once you start modifying her the process gets even more difficult. You don't need ES-TRIN in UK.

So – assuming that you are bringing her to UK with principal use as a houseboat.

Firstly ensure that she has been removed from the Dutch register (Kadaster). Then register her on the UK Small Ships Register to make her a British ship. If you bring her across on her own bottom you should be able to claim exemption from ES-TRIN to get her to the coast as a sea-going vessel.

You need to check that she is insurable, now and cross-channel – talk to MS-Amlin and GJW Direct. Remember – once you have bought her she is yours to insure – not the previous owner. The minimum insurance for use inland in UK and in most marinas / moorings is third party for £2/3,000,000.

Boat Safety will only be required on UK inland waters which does not include the tidal Medway or Thames but does include the River Lea. You are able to enter and self-certify but can only get a visitor (short-term) licence. An annual licence requires a proper BSS but they will usually count your visitor licence fees against the annual fee.

There is no licence requirement on the Tidal Thames (PLA water). Peel ports manage the tidal Medway and there is a modest licence fee. The non-tidal Medway is Environment Agency water and needs a full registration fee. The River Lea is Canal and River Trust water and a licence is needed.

Have you found a mooring yet?

Good luck with your plans and if I have misunderstood your future use for her do respond!
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Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director Representation and Treasurer
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org

Documents and certificates needed for UK inland waterways. 29 Apr 2020 17:49 #115617

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Hi everyone!

Hope you all keeping sane and healthy in those uncertain times.

First of all thank you all for contributing to DBA forum , it’s being great resource for a new member like myself!

My partner and I will be getting our barge from Netherlands as soon as we can travel again and looking at the Barge Buyers Handbook and Knowledge base it is still not 100% clear what “she” will need in terms of paperwork and certificates. I thought It might be worth checking if what I imagined is right to avoid unpleasant surprises.

A bit about the barge first:

23m x 5m klipperakk.

rven.info/schipb.aspx?=1129&fbclid=IwAR07nLGZumuJsaivvGQ72ufsKyo_gZagTT3BpaMeC4tRHx-WFbYL4c2Bjco

commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Femmigje_%28ship,_1907%29

She has never being converted and has no certificates at the present.

Once we are happy with the surveys and we bought it, what do we need in order to navigate inland waterways in the UK ?

What we are thinking is:

1. MCA Small Ship Registry
2. CVO and TRIWV / ES-TRIN
3. Insurance
4. BSS ( Boat safety scheme certification )
5. Get a licence for the waterways we will be moored at ( Medway or River Lee cruising )

Please let us know if we are missing anything or if we can get away with not having one of the above...

ie. do we need ES-TRIN if we are not intending to cruise in Europe for a year or two if ever.

Take care,

Michal and Ana

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