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TOPIC: Water points and hoses

Water points and hoses 03 May 2021 12:34 #122884

  • Keith Norfolk
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So the photos confirm that these valves are the ones mentioned earlier ( I've not been on the Thames to see for myself ) which are not designed for this purpose. So how do we persuade the pig headed EA that they've got this wrong?

Keith

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Water points and hoses 03 May 2021 12:19 #122883

  • William and Lucinda Voorhees
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Armed with a 2 litre container and 7m hose I stopped by Bovney lock first thing this morning to check the water point modifications (pictures attached). The tap is located a good 8 feet above river level so this should avoid any back pressure due to pressure head at our bow fill point, which is at 4 feet above river level.

Despite the advantage of gravity it took 22.4 seconds to fill the 2 litre container, which works out to about 320 litres per hour or about 3.5 hours to fill our modest fresh water tank. The NRV sputtered and spit water out continuously, but I don’t think much volume was lost during this particular test. The low flow rate is undoubtedly a product of the low municipal water pressure and the very thin and restricted stream produced by the NRV valve.

Interesting signage duct taped inside the cabinet, especially the photo of the NRV valve and the request to contact the lock keeper if it goes missing — I wonder if this is a frequent occurrence?

Separate topic but on a common theme, I noticed Bovney pumpout is out of order, joining Molesey, Rushey, and the perennially unavailable Mapledurham pumpout so half of the EA pumpouts on the Thames are broken currently.

William

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Water points and hoses 21 Apr 2021 00:13 #122628

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Professional firefighter here who attaches pumps to municipal systems regularly. No matter the usage, municipal water systems tend to be filled with sediment that will be stirred up when pumps are attached. Both Richard's and Paul's points are quite valid. We have to be very careful at work not to drop residual pressure in the system to unsafe levels when we use our pumps. Even maintaining safe residual pressures, there are often complaints after fires about sediment clogging up residential plumbing after fires. Using a strong pump in a system with low pressure to begin with may cause a number of unforeseen problems, some of them quite hazardous to the general public. I'd recommend some caution with this approach.
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Water points and hoses 20 Apr 2021 22:08 #122626

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Hear hear.

Keith

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Water points and hoses 20 Apr 2021 21:26 #122624

  • Andy Soper
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Abingdon lock water point is in near continual use during the day - with queues even before the latest changes!

Suggest no risk of debris!

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Water points and hoses 20 Apr 2021 21:21 #122623

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Richard Fiedorowicz wrote: Chris,
Your suggestion to use a pump seems like a good idea - I have bought a Clarke SPE1200SS with a flow rate of 61 litres - probably over the top but might as well aim high! - worst case the lock keeper could have a slow shower.
I shall make some quick release fittings and an adaptor for a hoselock connector and do a before and after flow test and report back.

A colleague filled his cruiser at abingdon last night and with a hose less than the maximum recommended length water sprayed out - overcome with some insulation tape by him and the previous narrow boat.

Richard


Hi Richard,

You might find an unexpected effect of using a pump, you might disturb all of the debris lying on the bottom of the main and get "dirty water"

This often happens when the Fire Service open a hydrant fully, and the neighbours on the same main aren't very happy, seen it many times.

Paul Hayes
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Water points and hoses 20 Apr 2021 21:11 #122621

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The pressure at Abingdon is pretty low at times, I can envisage a powerful pump creating a negative pressure upline when water is being drawn off elsewhere. If there are any leaky unions on that leg then there could be a possible contamination issue. Just what the new devices are supposed to prevent.
A pump could well speed things up for the pump owner, but it wouldn't help reduce the waiting time with a queue of boats in front.
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Water points and hoses 20 Apr 2021 20:58 #122620

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Hello Richard,

I presume you re responding to Chris Grant who posted on a Facebook site.

I don't agree that we should be buying booster pumps to make up for EA's crap engineering. I will continue to press for them to provide a properly engineered solution to fill boats' water tanks by hose- they have had from 1999 to think one up!
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Water points and hoses 20 Apr 2021 20:22 #122619

  • Richard Fiedorowicz
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Chris,
Your suggestion to use a pump seems like a good idea - I have bought a Clarke SPE1200SS with a flow rate of 61 litres - probably over the top but might as well aim high! - worst case the lock keeper could have a slow shower.
I shall make some quick release fittings and an adaptor for a hoselock connector and do a before and after flow test and report back.

A colleague filled his cruiser at abingdon last night and with a hose less than the maximum recommended length water sprayed out - overcome with some insulation tape by him and the previous narrow boat.
Perhaps this seasons must have accessory is a roll of insulation tape.

Richard
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Water points and hoses 10 Apr 2021 21:25 #122373

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Hello Richard,

' it is one of the things we pay our registration fee for' - yes - but not necessarily in bulk by hose - hence the lock-side taps for filling 'containers'.

An unsatisfactory result so far except that as they replied:

'We have asked our operational staff to investigate whether any of our existing lock site water points can be adapted, relocated and / or increased in number to improve the accessibility to our customers and reduce the risks that you have identified. This work will also include researching alternative solutions to non-return / back pressure valves. If we are able to adapt our water points, we will undertake any work at our earliest opportunity.'

My challenge worked with Culham lock and this 'steam plumber' will remain on the case.

And make sure I pack the plumber's grips on any voyage of length!
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Water points and hoses 10 Apr 2021 20:53 #122372

  • Keith Norfolk
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Indeed, some of us are plumbers or at least were and some of us know how to read too!

Keith

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Water points and hoses 10 Apr 2021 20:41 #122371

  • Richard Cooksey
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I was walking the dog past the Abingdon Lock water point this afternoon and curiosity got the better of me now that the new valve has been fitted . So turned on the tap fully to check the flow, water comes through in a seemingly fast but very narrow stream with virtually zero pressure. It took 14 seconds to fill a 1 litre container that I fished out of the nearby skip (4l/min). I realise this is not an exact test and I hope I havn't contaminated the water supply by using a grubby container, but if my maths is correct, it is going to take me 160 minutes (say, 2.5 hours) to fill my tank. This is just not acceptable, access to water is a neccesity and it is one of the things we pay our registration fee for.
Yesterday my partner, Sue, spoke to the guy fitting the device and expressed her concern about the likely slow filling rate. His response was along the lines of "so boaters know more than plumbers then!" She replied that some boaters are plumbers.
The Abingdon water point pressure has always been poor so needs as wide a bore hose possible. I envisage having to now go there in the middle of the night after dark now to avoid long queues.

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Water points and hoses 07 Apr 2021 15:44 #122329

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Reply from EA today:
Dear Andy,

Thank you for your email dated 5 April 2021 regarding our recent guidance note on changes to drinking and bulk water supply at our lock sites.
We are grateful to you for providing us with feedback on this important issue, which we will use to review how we can further adapt our water supply service to be safe for our customers.
We have asked our operational staff to investigate whether any of our existing lock site water points can be adapted, relocated and / or increased in number to improve the accessibility to our customers and reduce the risks that you have identified. This work will also include researching alternative solutions to non-return / back pressure valves. If we are able to adapt our water points, we will undertake any work at our earliest opportunity. We are unlikely to be able to increase the water pressure at our sites, which will determine the extent of any improvement works. We will, however, ensure that our staff are made aware of your observations relating to CRT water points.
The health, safety and wellbeing of our customers and staff remains our highest priority. We also need to safeguard the public water supply and took action to remove any water hygiene risks associated to our water outlets following a recent review of this service. Once we have concluded our service improvement investigations, we will communicate any possible upgrade works with our customers.
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Water points and hoses 06 Apr 2021 15:04 #122316

  • Keith Norfolk
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Ah yes, I overlooked your mentioning Appendix 3.
Rather than ''an unsatisfactory solution'' though I would call it a totally wrong application.

Keith

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Water points and hoses 06 Apr 2021 14:46 #122315

  • Andy Soper
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Hello Keith,

Indeed - EA themselves refer to the Industry Standard Guide (which CRT contributed to but not EA) and it seems to have been misinterpreted by EA - see my post #122298.

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Water points and hoses 06 Apr 2021 14:14 #122314

  • Keith Norfolk
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Hi Andy,
Please see link below.
This is obviously where this nonsense started, not the document itself I hasten to add but by someone misinterpreting a section of it.
If you go to page 30 you will see Appendix 1. a list of Fluid categories the top one being cat. 5 serious health risk.
The next page, Appendix 2,shows a water bollard set up for cat. 5. This, as you will see, has a short hose permanently attached.
The next page, Appendix 3, shows a Regulation 4 stand pipe set up as required for the filling of tanks with drinking water. ( cat.1 )

www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Environmental/Industry%20Best%20Practice%20Marine%20Water%20Facilities%202019.pdf

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Water points and hoses 05 Apr 2021 22:08 #122309

  • Gordon Mackenzie
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6oomm hose ? That’s not even enough to get from the tap to the edge of the river at Hurley or indeed any water supply at any lock I’m guessing, surely that must be 6000mm

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Water points and hoses 05 Apr 2021 21:46 #122306

  • Richard Fiedorowicz
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As I only carry a standard garden hose on a reel for when I wash the barge I will need to sort out something to fill the water tank.
As the tank holds around 1500 plus litres I am likely to be causing a queue along with everyone else on the Thames - does anyone think it’s worth trying a 3/4” /19 mm inside diameter hose so back pressure / flow loss is kept to a minimum - I can knock up an adaptor for the end of the quick release fitting.
Thanks for any advice!

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Water points and hoses 05 Apr 2021 19:46 #122300

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Hello Keith,

But guess which type of NRVs EA maintainers would have on the shelf - elsans, urinals and pump-out wash through!

Pump out rinse hoses are about 600mm long and marked - not potable or similat

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Water points and hoses 05 Apr 2021 19:32 #122298

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Sent today to both EA harbourmasters:

Hello Both,

Thank you for the notification of removing hoses from water points. It has caused much discussion on DBA and other waterway Forums. Removing the hoses is in line
with others actions but with the addition of a small bore tap and an NRV has reduced the available flow for all users resulting in queues and congestion at water-points.

The NRV is an inappropriate solution. I have attached the manufacturers datasheet.

At best it will allow 400 litres per hour - a typical narrowboat water tank is 350litres and a barge 1500 litres. Its design allows for a 600MM (not 6 metres!) hose and the filling point should be BELOW the valve - think pump-out or Elsan wash-down. Most narrowboats will have a filler about level with your fittings but well below a cruiser or barge fittings - resulting in even slower fill.

The original legislation does not appear to need any back-fill prevention device as the hose will be provided by the user and removed after use (current marina practice)

You quote the industry good practice guide which recommends a double check valve before the tap - as used by CRT - Appendix 3 and does not have the same restriction on flow.

I am surprised that we have ended up with such an unsatisfactory solution.

Suggest that the NRVs are removed and taps - at least doubled - to produce an acceptable flow.

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Water points and hoses 05 Apr 2021 19:31 #122297

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Thank you - data sheet being forwarded to EA Managers with commentary!

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Water points and hoses 05 Apr 2021 19:23 #122296

  • Keith Norfolk
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Well seeing as that model is intended for urinals and elsan points I doubt very much if that is the type installed by EA.
The other one is for automatic filling of swimming pools and would be permanently connected.

Keith

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Water points and hoses 05 Apr 2021 19:06 #122291

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Thank you - data sheet being forwarded to EA Managers with commentary!

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Water points and hoses 05 Apr 2021 18:44 #122289

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A couple of different forums (ybw.com and canalworld.net) mention the NRV used by the EA is made by Arrow Valves, part number DC20F257. I haven’t seen the installation myself, but looking at the flow curves in the attached datasheet, approximately 400 litres is the best you can expect for your allotted hour at the tap — less than half a tank for us, and this assumes little discharge through the vent holes of course.

Section 3 of the attached installation guide mentions “A short (600 mm max.) unrestricted hose can be fitted.” That doesn’t seem to bode well for using even a woefully inadequate 7m hose. An additional concern for us is our water filler is in the bow at about 1.5m above water line. Unless the tap is mounted high on a post, there will be additional back pressure due to gravity. I’m thinking Chris’ suggestion of an inline pump might be necessary for us to get close to that 400 litre mark.

Of course a better solution would be for EA to fit multiple taps with reasonable flow rates, and then multiple boats at the head of the queue can hook up their normal (long) water hoses.

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Water points and hoses 04 Apr 2021 21:37 #122273

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Just been hearing some horror stories about Hurley lock , boats everywhere trying to fill up, 2 1/2 hours to fill a small Caribbean .
The lock keepers are pulling their hair out as the boats are blocking other vessels trying to get through, and there is a sign saying 1 hour only.
I think the EA have dropped the ball here

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Water points and hoses 01 Apr 2021 22:47 #122231

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If they think they can remove hoses without consulting then they will have little interest in providing more opportunities.

I will return to the fray with EA shortly!

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Water points and hoses 25 Mar 2021 17:54 #122095

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Never mind possible back flow pollution;

www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/25/uk-flying-blind-on-levels-of-toxic-chemicals-in-tap-water

The UK government is not testing drinking water for a group of toxic manmade chemicals linked to a range of diseases including cancers, while across the world people are falling sick and suing for hundreds of millions of dollars at a time after finding the substances in their tap water.

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Water points and hoses 25 Mar 2021 13:26 #122089

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Andy Soper wrote: We are talking about 1999 legislation here. All the Thames marinas seem to able to cope with supplying potable water to boats so why is the EA solution so complicated and ineffectual. They claim to have followed industry best practice:
www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Environmental/Industry%20Best%20Practice%20Marine%20Water%20Facilities%202019.pdf
which I am studying but so far have not found the need for NRV. The big issue was stagnating water in hosepipes - take the hose away - problem solved and no risk of bback-filling.
I will present a case to EA in due course but any information from marina owners as to how they implemented the legislation welcome.


From memory that was the reason BWML used a few years ago when they removed the hose from the waterpoint and why a couple of boats been told off for having hoses always attached to pressure the system rather than filling a tank (which of course is a stupid idea as if something breaks on board youve the mains supplying feeding your vessel.

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Water points and hoses 24 Mar 2021 22:30 #122078

  • Balliol Fowden
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DCV’s have long been a requirement by water boards / companies. We were required to fit them to all our boatyard stand pipes long before 1999 after a routine water board inspection. Just as a shower head hose cannot legally be long enough to dip into the shower tray, the concern is that foul water does not back siphon into the main and allow bacteriological contamination.

We made a policy decision to remove all our boatyard hose out of hours after somebody put one into one of our boats and sank it, sometime in the mid-eighties.

Personally I would rather use my own hose than a public one, that may have been used to flush a loo tank, dragged through dog do or whatever. Mine may not be pristine, or not regularly marinated in Milton, but I do know where it has been.

Balliol.

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Water points and hoses 24 Mar 2021 20:18 #122074

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I have written to Thames motor boat colleagues as follows:

Attached is the appropriate extract from the Industry Guide as quoted by EA.
It describes a water point similar to those installed by CRT (for the last ten years) with a double check valve (DCV) inside the column and a lockable cover (not always serviceable)
There is a diagram and picture in the Annex but beyond my skills to copy to you!
EA have gone for the cheapo mod and put an NRV on the tap rather than a DCV upstream of the tap.
How do we take this forwards? I am tempted just to raise another complaint as we are ignored at every turn.

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Water points and hoses 24 Mar 2021 18:13 #122071

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We are talking about 1999 legislation here. All the Thames marinas seem to able to cope with supplying potable water to boats so why is the EA solution so complicated and ineffectual. They claim to have followed industry best practice:
www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Environmental/Industry%20Best%20Practice%20Marine%20Water%20Facilities%202019.pdf
which I am studying but so far have not found the need for NRV. The big issue was stagnating water in hosepipes - take the hose away - problem solved and no risk of bback-filling.
I will present a case to EA in due course but any information from marina owners as to how they implemented the legislation welcome.
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Water points and hoses 24 Mar 2021 18:06 #122070

  • Chris Grant
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What about helping the flow along with your own small pressure pump to suck along your own longer hose thus reducing back pressure.

uk.rs-online.com/web/p/water-pumps/6679129

Just one example of many available, this one 18 litres / min. Obviously don;t want too powerful that the suction collapses the long hose reducing the open area.

From memory it used to take about an hour / 1000 litres (17 l/min) to fill my tank with 50 m hose and normal town water pressure of about 2 bar. If you use the pump to reduce the back pressure and avoid the valve activating you should get full flow on longer length hose.

A helper pump is also useful in marinas where water is coin op timed by the minute based on no backpressure so on a long hose you reduce the hose pressure drop and get your money's worth.

William and Lucinda Voorhees wrote: With the current bulk hoses at Thames locks it takes us about 45 minutes to fill, assuming good flow, but it will be upwards of 2 hours with a hozelock in the mix — similar to when we fill at the marina I imagine. Good news is we won’t have to fill again for a couple weeks, but I doubt that’s much consolation for the poor boats behind us in the queue. We could fill up half as much every week, but that just adds one more boat to the inevitable queues that will form.

And Keith’s concern about the 7m hose length is well founded, especially given the intricate dance of boats queuing and using other services at the lock. It’s not always possible to pull up directly in front of the water point, and this can only become more difficult in 2021, adding further to the delays.

William

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Water points and hoses 24 Mar 2021 16:06 #122069

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With the current bulk hoses at Thames locks it takes us about 45 minutes to fill, assuming good flow, but it will be upwards of 2 hours with a hozelock in the mix — similar to when we fill at the marina I imagine. Good news is we won’t have to fill again for a couple weeks, but I doubt that’s much consolation for the poor boats behind us in the queue. We could fill up half as much every week, but that just adds one more boat to the inevitable queues that will form.

And Keith’s concern about the 7m hose length is well founded, especially given the intricate dance of boats queuing and using other services at the lock. It’s not always possible to pull up directly in front of the water point, and this can only become more difficult in 2021, adding further to the delays.

William

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Water points and hoses 24 Mar 2021 14:40 #122065

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Well they will need to make many more water points available for bulk filling then.
Also will the tap always be near enough to ensure that a hose of 7 metres or less is long enough to reach the filler?
I can see that there are going to be a lot of disgruntled boaters because of this, queues already form at water points as it is!

Keith

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Water points and hoses 24 Mar 2021 11:22 #122050

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In short EA have decided (without any consultation with users) to remove all hose reels from 'their' water-points on the Thames.
No mention of their plan at the User meeting two weeks ago!

To add insult to injury they have fitted non-return valves which spurt water out sideways if it encounters a back-pressure. The advice is to use a hose less than 7m long with no restrictions! The NR valve has a standard hozelock fitting.

(The life expectancy of the NRV is reputed to be less than a fortnight! (Joke) )

Full notice attached - the regulations were passed in1999 - rapid response by EA.

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The following user(s) said Thank You: Tim Crew

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Best Wishes
Andy Soper
DBA Director Representation and Treasurer
mv Neeltje
Coookham
0044 (0) 303 666 0636

You don't need a barge to join - a dream of boating in Europe will do'. See www.barges.org
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